Poorly played Q-Q hand?

[deacsoft]

Looks fairly standard to me but just thought I'd double chect.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t1760)
UTG (t1075)
UTG+1 (t2430)
UTG+2 (t1450)
MP1 (t2120)
MP2 (t1045)
MP3 (t565)
CO (t1395)
Hero (t1505)
SB (t2050)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises to t100</font>, MP2 calls t100, MP3 folds, CO calls t100, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t350</font>, SB folds, BB folds, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises to t800</font>, MP2 folds, CO folds, Hero calls t450.

Flop: (t1875) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">MP1 bets t900</font>, Hero calls t705 (All-In).

Turn: (t3480) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: (t3480) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t3480
<font color="green">Main Pot: t3285 (t3285), between MP1 and Hero.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by MP1 (t3285).</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: t195 (t195), returned to MP1.</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
MP1 shows Ah Ac (one pair, aces).
Hero shows Qs Qc (one pair, queens).
Outcome: MP1 wins t3480. </font>

[TracyMiller]

I think maybe calling the reraise was probably OK. But once the flop missed me like that, facing a bet that would put me all-in, I would have gritted my teeth and tossed it away.

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
I think maybe calling the reraise was probably OK. But once the flop missed me like that, facing a bet that would put me all-in, I would have gritted my teeth and tossed it away.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about others, but I generally wouldn't say that a raggy undercard flop "misses" QQ.

That said, that small preflop re-raise is awfly suspicious. I really don't like to lay down QQ online with an unthreatening board, but unless you'd seen this player making these small re-raises before, it's hard to imagine what else he would do it with.

It's a tough fold though. I don't think I could make it in a $20 online tournament unless I had actually taken a note on a player that a small preflop re-raise means AA/KK (and I try to take this note whenever I see that behavior).

[Squirrel]

I was thinking the same thing. Flop looks pretty good for Queens.

And in a 20 dollar online tourney, I'm going busted here if I see that flop.

I may fold BTF, but if I call the reraise, no way do I fold that flop.

[gergery]

In a multi with a buy-in at $30 or higher or with good players, I might be able to lay this down instead of calling his raise to 800 preflop, since its likely he has AA,KK, AK. Once he’s allin on the flop I would clearly fold. I don’t see him limp-reraising with JJ, TT, and he’d have to be pretty loose/agr to push allin with AK. Usually limp-reraise then push on flop is AA or KK particularly in an MTT. By contrast, I do exactly what you did at low level sng.

[soxfan70]

My thinking here is not that the flop missed me, but rather it MUST have missed my opponent. I push here as well, and commiseriate with you on the rail.

[Truck Wiseman]

I suppose the real question is, how many times do you think you are going to run into AK/JJ/TT with this betting pattern and this player?

To me the pre-flop reraise smells an awful lot like a very big pair. But if you do call here, you have also to be prepared to call all-in on the flop as it's highly likely this guy is going to push after such an aggressive pre-flop move. So I think its either fold pre-flop or stake your tournament on a read that he's representing aces. Nasty.

[deacsoft]

Another question for everyone...

Is it not common for players to largely over play hands like J-J and T-T?

[woodguy]

Yes, they get overplayed all the time, especially in $30+3 and lower.
IMHO the type of player who overplays these hands is not the type of player to re-raise you pre-flop and not be all-in himself.
Had he just called PF then pushed on that flop, it would be easier to put him on JJ-TT. The re-raise without putting himself all-in looks like an invitation to come over top of him.
(20/20 hindsight notwithstanding /images/graemlins/grin.gif)
regards,
woodguy

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it not common for players to largely over play hands like J-J and T-T?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. However, *usually* when they are overplayed, they are overplayed by the player pushing all-in with them. If the other player had pushed preflop, I would have called with QQ in a heartbeat, and if it is KK-AA, oh well. Making a minimum or close the minimum reraise is pretty darn suspicious, and I've seen it mean AA/KK more often than not.

I washed out of the 1000 WCOOP last year by essentially ignoring this piece of advice. I raised with AJ in LP, got min re-raised, and then ended up all-in on a J high flop against KK.

[tripdad]

absent a player read, i either go in or fold to the reraise to T800. i think a lot of "experts" would condone folding, though i don't think i could (absent the read). one thing is for sure, though...i do not just call the reraise for more than 1/2 my stack preflop.

cheers!

[Squirrel]

Yeah, while responding to the "missed flop" post I overlooked how big the reraise was relative to your stack.

I agree, fold or shove preflop. In an online tourney with a smaller buy-in, I am shoving with QQ here.

It sure looks like AA or KK, but as the buyin gets smaller, the range of hands people do this with seems to get MUCH larger.

[deacsoft]

Some great advice from all. Thanks guys.