5h7h in late position (long)

So, I was at Commerce last night, trying to lose some more money....the good news is I succeeded. A hand came up that I ended up having a bit of a disagreement with some other players/BUDDIES about.


I have the 5h7h on the button. The game is a typical commerce 9-18 game (somewhere between 6 and 178 players see each flop, and a raise means nothing). UTG limps (for the record, the only two players with a clue at this table are to my immediate right, and both are not involved in this hand...everybody is way too loose, pays off with bottom and second pair, etc).


So, anyways, UTG limps, next player raises...this means KQo better. Two people cold call, and I have the 5h7h on the button.


Now, I misplayed this hand on the flop, turn, and river (well, maybe not the flop), so I won't get into that, I'm just curious about the preflop play. . .


It seems that 5h7h is all about pot odds and position...I'm not worried about "being dominated", because I know that EVERYBODY has overcards, or possibly an overpair. A bigger heart draw would concern me slightly, but not too much.


Should I call here? Is the fact that there is a raise enough to get me out of this pot? The big-blind has NEVER folded his blind, and the small blind folded his blind only once (I figger that his wife must have been in labor...he looked very uncomfortable folding his blind). The game was loose, oh by the way.


So, I know that I'm going to be seeing the flop (if I call) with at LEAST 6 players. Isn't that all that I care about here?


Okay, so let's assume (falsely, perhaps?) that a call is warranted. My question (well, my second question), is, is a 3-bet a bad move? Note that I'd only do this once every couple of sessions. I figure that this won't change my PRE-FLOP pot odds, and this table has an enormous "check-to-the-raiser" mentality. This means that if I flop a weak draw, or no draw but a small pair, I will quite likely get a free turn, since i am the proud owner of the button.


So, my questions are:


1.) is a preflop call horrible?

2.) If a preflop call is not horrible, then is a very-rare 3-bet horrible?


Your thoughts?


Thanks,


Worm

Hmm, 9/18 Commerce last night? I might have been at your table. I do remember that there was some asian kid in seat 2 that was just running over everyone. Perhaps you should have asked him about your question. As to your hand, I'd muck that without a second thought. Even if it ends up 7 handed, your cold-calling 2 bets with 57h is only giving you 6:1 pot odds, right? Even with your position, I don't think that's enough to play a piece of cheese like that. The only time I'd voluntarily put money into a pot with 57h is perhaps if it was raised UTG and everyone on the table called and I was in one of the blinds. 56h or 67h I may be more inclined to play, but 57h is just asking for trouble. But hell, what do I know.

Worm,


While you do have good position, there are other factors to consider besides the number of players you expect to play this hand. For example, you must also consider how aggressive the game is (i.e., if there is a lot of raising). I think that you may be able to justify limping if you are positive that there will not be another raise pre-flop. But note that there are the 2 blinds still to act plus UTG, anyone of which could decide to "gamble" and make it 3-bets. This could ultimately lead to a capped pot pre-flop and I would hate to have your hand in that situation. Given your description of the game it sounds like there could be another raise and so I think you have a clear fold.


You seem to realize that 3-betting would be a bad play -- and it is. Your motivation to do so is that it may (emphasis on the word "may") get you a free card on the turn. This is a poor reason to raise. Review HPFAP which has a section on raising.


Under the right circumstances (which I don't think exist here) you may be able to justify playing this hand, although you need to realize that it is a high variance play.


If there had not been a raise in front of you (and you believed that a raise behind you from the blinds was unlikely) then I think you could limp with this hand.


If I were in your shoes I would be more patient and wait for a better hand to play in this situation. Good luck with your game!


-- Manzanita

I'm going to differ from the others here. I think the call for 2 bets on the button with 5h7h probably shows a small profit, as long as you really are going to see a 7 way flop. If the table is pretty tame postflop (rarely more than 1-2 bets per street), a call is better than when the game is wild. Just be sure you play it well postflop, which mostly means not getting trapped for extra bets when you flop only a pair. Also keep in mind that this is a high variance play, so making this call very often can put you through some uncomfortable fluctuations.


As for reraising, it sounds like you don't need to vary your preflop play for deception purposes in this game, so I wouldn't bother with it. You may get checked to on the flop because of it, but that usually only saves you the bet you already put in preflop, since you will often bet the flop if you liked it (but maybe even preferred to raise someone else), or not care much about getting a free turn card because you totally whiffed.


There is little difference between a suited one gap or suited connector as far as your likelihood of making a straight or flush goes, and as you say, these hands play well with lots of opponents (especially when you have position).