SNGs: At level(buy-ins) can you make a living at?

[Desdia72]

at what level of SNGs does your ITM%/winnings start to constitute or represent an income worth living off of?

does it start at the $10 level with a consistent rate of cashes or does it start in the 20s, the 30s, or higher?

[Cptkernow]

It depends on what standard of living you aspire to.
Based on playing two tables at once with a win rate of 45% and playing about 5 hours a day I would propose the following to be true.

30s = existing
50s= begining of a living
100s= Above average wage
200s= You are rich.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
It depends on what standard of living you aspire to.
Based on playing two tables at once with a win rate of 45% and playing about 5 hours a day I would propose the following to be true.

30s = existing
50s= begining of a living
100s= Above average wage
200s= You are rich.

[/ QUOTE ]

what do you mean by 'EXISTING' and 'BEGINNING OF LIVING'?

[Rick Diesel]

Assuming that you play 8 hours a day for 200 days a year, and 2 SNGs at a time.
Also assuming a ROI of 25%, which anyone who plays SNGs for a living should be able to maintain.

$22 SNGs - approx. $20,300 per year
$33 SNGs - approx. $31,000 per year
$55 SNGs - approx. $52,800 per year
$109 SNGs - approx. $106,800 per year

Rick Diesel

[Cptkernow]

existing= just getting by
the begining of a living = Earning a living but only just

[BradleyT]

[ QUOTE ]
at what level of SNGs does your ITM%/winnings start to constitute or represent an income worth living off of?

[/ QUOTE ]

At the level where your GF stops telling you how to play.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
at what level of SNGs does your ITM%/winnings start to constitute or represent an income worth living off of?

does it start at the $10 level with a consistent rate of cashes or does it start in the 20s, the 30s, or higher?

[/ QUOTE ]

Desdia,

A friendly wake-up call: if you can't figure this out for yourself, you aren't going to get there at any buy-in. This is just too straightforward a calculation not to be able to do it for yourself. Not to mention that "income worth living off of" can vary by something like 5x or more depending on expected standard of living and local economy.

eastbay

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
at what level of SNGs does your ITM%/winnings start to constitute or represent an income worth living off of?

does it start at the $10 level with a consistent rate of cashes or does it start in the 20s, the 30s, or higher?

[/ QUOTE ]

Desdia,

A friendly wake-up call: if you can't figure this out for yourself, you aren't going to get there at any buy-in. This is just too straightforward a calculation not to be able to do it for yourself. Not to mention that "income worth living off of" can vary by something like 5x or more depending on expected standard of living and local economy.

eastbay

[/ QUOTE ]

i wanted to here what others had to say. factors such as ITM% and ROI can have a huge impact on what could be considered 'LIVABLE'. instead of stating the obvious, why not just answer the question like the others? if not, bypass it altogether.

*Brad T: this is not a cheapshot forum*

[BradleyT]

There is no standard answer.

If you can get a 50% ROI on the $10 SnG's that's better than a 20% ROI on the $20 SnGs but still not livable.

Sounds like your GF probably makes you pay for everything too, so I would say you'd need to play at least the $50's and have a 30%+ ROI. So you'd be making $15 per SnG. Do you have enough time to play at least 10-20 of these per day and still maintain that ROI? Are you even good enough to get that high of a ROI in the $50's?

If the $50's are too hard then you will play the $30's. A 30% ROI there is only $9 per SnG meaning you have to play 50% more to equal the ROI at the $50's.

What about the $100's? All you need there is a 15% ROI to equal a 30% ROI at the $50's. Is that easier to attain? Sounds like it would be!

And the big daddy $200's? A mere 7.5% ROI is all you need to equal the 30% at the $50's. That sounds like the easiest of all doesn't it?

Now what about bad runs? Say you start the $200's with a $5,000 BR and run pretty bad for a month. Sure you're winning some but you're also losing a lot. That BR would be wiped out much faster than if you were playing the $50's.

Like I said, there's really no standard answer although I can tell you anything below the $30's isn't going to accomplish what you want.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no standard answer.

If you can get a 50% ROI on the $10 SnG's that's better than a 20% ROI on the $20 SnGs but still not livable.

Sounds like your GF probably makes you pay for everything too, so I would say you'd need to play at least the $50's and have a 30%+ ROI. So you'd be making $15 per SnG. Do you have enough time to play at least 10-20 of these per day and still maintain that ROI? Are you even good enough to get that high of a ROI in the $50's?

If the $50's are too hard then you will play the $30's. A 30% ROI there is only $9 per SnG meaning you have to play 50% more to equal the ROI at the $50's.

What about the $100's? All you need there is a 15% ROI to equal a 30% ROI at the $50's. Is that easier to attain? Sounds like it would be!

And the big daddy $200's? A mere 7.5% ROI is all you need to equal the 30% at the $50's. That sounds like the easiest of all doesn't it?

Now what about bad runs? Say you start the $200's with a $5,000 BR and run pretty bad for a month. Sure you're winning some but you're also losing a lot. That BR would be wiped out much faster than if you were playing the $50's.

Like I said, there's really no standard answer although I can tell you anything below the $30's isn't going to accomplish what you want.

[/ QUOTE ]

very informative answer, without taking to the GF level.

[Eihli]

You needed to hear what he said. His reply is Instead of shrugging his reply off you should re-read it and thank him because what he said will help you more than any other reply you'll get to that post.

[BradleyT]

Some other considerations.

The $100 and $200 give you a discount on the VIG. At $100 you're getting an instant 1.1% ROI boost by saving $1 per tourney. At $200 you're getting an instant 2.5% ROI boost by saving $5 per tourney. For example 4 $50 tourneys cost $55 x 4 = $220 but one $200 tourney costs $215. If you're playing 10-20 SnG's per day that can really add up after a month.

And don't forget about signing up under an affiliate so you can get a portion of your entry fees back from Party/Empire. That's another grand or two back to you every month if you're playing the highest levels.

So there's definately many benefits to playing the higher levels but you obviously need to have the skills and the bankroll and stomach for bad swings to play high.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
Some other considerations.

The $100 and $200 give you a discount on the VIG. At $100 you're getting an instant 1.1% ROI boost by saving $1 per tourney. At $200 you're getting an instant 2.5% ROI boost by saving $5 per tourney. For example 4 $50 tourneys cost $55 x 4 = $220 but one $200 tourney costs $215. If you're playing 10-20 SnG's per day that can really add up after a month.

And don't forget about signing up under an affiliate so you can get a portion of your entry fees back from Party/Empire. That's another grand or two back to you every month if you're playing the highest levels.

So there's definately many benefits to playing the higher levels but you obviously need to have the skills and the bankroll and stomach for bad swings to play high.

[/ QUOTE ]

very informative reply, thanks. can't get enough of being overinformed. love it.

[elbooneb]

[ QUOTE ]

If you can get a 50% ROI on the $10 SnG's that's better than a 20% ROI on the $20 SnGs but still not livable.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree; i play 4 days a week 10$ sitngo's, 50 a day at 4 tables at the time...25% ROI= 500$/week...not bad

[Cptkernow]

Yea but that sounds like hard work.

Why on earth havnt you moved upto the 20s or 30s.

[BradleyT]

At 50 per day you should have moved up to the $20's or $30's after your first week.

[mikey checks]

How can you successfully play 4 tables at once? 2 or 3 is the max......otherwise youre just playing tight ass poker

[slogger]

Actually, it's a stupid question. Once you're signed up at a site, you no longer have the possibility of earning vig back through an affiliate, right?

[Prickly Pete]

[ QUOTE ]
How can you successfully play 4 tables at once? 2 or 3 is the max......otherwise youre just playing tight ass poker

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not necessarily true. Some can multitask quite well. Try engaging Daliman in a conversation at a $200 table. He will chat it up with you no problem, all the while playing 4 games and not missing a beat.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

...on what you consider an adequate living, with enough cusion to withstand fulctuations, *and* whether or not you're comfortable playing multiple tables.

For me, I'd want to make in the range of $2,000 per week, so assuming a conservative ROI estimate of 60%, and accepting the fact that I'm not comfortable playing more than one table at a time, I would have to feel I could beat the $100 level consistently to quit my day job.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Actually, if I could play 30 Party 3-tablers $30 + 3) per week and hit the money 45% of the time, assuming a fairly even distribution among the 5 payout spots, I think I could manage.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Not to mention that "income worth living off of" can vary by something like 5x or more depending on expected standard of living and local economy.

No kidding. If I moved to Peru I could live off 10's. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

why not just answer the question like the others?

What's the difference what others think? Do you want to know if you can do it? If so, pick what you think is an achievable ROI, determine how many SNGs you would comfortably play in a week, and see what buy-in level provides you with the income you want.

Isn't that more relevant than knowing that Kurn thinks he can do it with 100's, EastBay thinks he can do it with 50's and someone else thinks he can do it with 10's?

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
...on what you consider an adequate living, with enough cusion to withstand fulctuations, *and* whether or not you're comfortable playing multiple tables.

For me, I'd want to make in the range of $2,000 per week, so assuming a conservative ROI estimate of 60%,


[/ QUOTE ]

"conservative" ROI of 60%? Doesn't that seem a bit, umm, high?

eastbay

[Prickly Pete]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, if I could play 30 Party 3-tablers $30 + 3) per week and hit the money 45% of the time

[/ QUOTE ]

I imagine nobody has enough data here on the new 3-tablers, but this stuck out to me as an unachievable mark (I don't even money 45% in my 1-tablers). And I know, you were just giving some "What ifs" about what it would take to make a living. But, it got me to thinking, what is a reasonable hope of ITM% for 3-tablers for the better players.

[Desdia72]

[ QUOTE ]
why not just answer the question like the others?

What's the difference what others think? Do you want to know if you can do it? If so, pick what you think is an achievable ROI, determine how many SNGs you would comfortably play in a week, and see what buy-in level provides you with the income you want.

Isn't that more relevant than knowing that Kurn thinks he can do it with 100's, EastBay thinks he can do it with 50's and someone else thinks he can do it with 10's?

[/ QUOTE ]

if i did'nt want to hear what others thought, i would'nt have started the thread. it's not just about me. i like to hear what others feel they can or already have achieved.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

At a 'Stars 2-table SNG, 40% ITM balanced among the 4 payout spots gives you and ROI of 63.6%

If you can't finish in the money 40% of the time (with 18 starters, randomly you should be ITM 22% of the time), you shouldn't even entertain thoughts of making a living doing this.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

The figures were a straw man to take shots at. I would think that a good player should finish in the money twice as often as a random player, so 33% at a 3-table is reasonable as the lowest you might expect.

By the same token, having double the random expectation would suggest that at a 10 person single you'd be ITM 60% (9 person 67%), and at a 18 person 44%.

I don't know if such a linear relationship is even accurate. My gut suggests that 67% at a 9 player SNG may be a bit high, and 33% at a 30 person may be a bit low.

However, if you played 150 $30 + 3 3-tables and finished ITM 50 times with an even split among the payout places, your ROI would be about 82% ($4,950 invested, $4,050 net profit)

However, the lower the ITM needed to generate the ROI, the bigger the expected variance.

[Jason Strasser]

Kurn, your numbers must be wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
By the same token, having double the random expectation would suggest that at a 10 person single you'd be ITM 60% (9 person 67%), and at a 18 person 44%.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is not one person I know of on party who can sustain this figure. I'm sure eastbay can do some calculation to tell you that this is impossible, or close to it. SIXTY percent in the money for ten person is absurd. At the 100 and 200 levels, a ITM of 40% is shocking and extremely solid--especially if your finishes are top heavy. My ITM is llower than 40%, but not by a whole lot.

I'm sure other SNG regulars will back me up here, those numbers are nuts. Maybe if stars offered a one cent sit and go, people would have numbers like that...

[elbooneb]

[ QUOTE ]
At 50 per day you should have moved up to the $20's or $30's after your first week.

[/ QUOTE ]

I sould try you are right but remember i'm knot illing these tourneys, i only have a 25% ROI at the 10$ tables playing 200 a week. What should i expect from playing 100 20$ or 30$ tourneys a week? I'm here for the money..period.

Thanks for sharing.

[elbooneb]

[ QUOTE ]
How can you successfully play 4 tables at once? 2 or 3 is the max......otherwise youre just playing tight ass poker

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm basically not playing for the 1st 3 levels (watching a lot of tv and dvd's!...i'm playing 4 tables while i'm writting this...)playing only P10 to PAA Aks Ak Aqs...that's it! Start to play and steal when the blinds are 50/100. Works for me..

Thanks for your comments

[BradleyT]

You make enough profit in a week to cover the BR needed to play the $20's - unless you experience wild swings playing so many a day.

I haven't found any difference ability-wise between the $10 and $20 players on Party. Other people have said there's not much difference even at the $30's.

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
My gut suggests that 67% at a 9 player SNG may be a bit high, and 33% at a 30 person may be a bit low.


[/ QUOTE ]

My stats suggest that you can hit about low 40s% in the 18s and around 50% in the 9s and 10s on party. These are at low levels though, I'm not sure how much harder it gets as we move up.

Regards ML