20-40 HE KK Big Pot

I am in late position with KK. There has been an early position raise and I make it 60 to go. Both players behind me call 60 cold and the big blind calls. The original raiser reraises and I cap at 100. We see the flop with 7 way action.


The flop comes Q 6 4 rainbow. The original raiser bets out two players fold and I reraise. Both players behind me call 40 cold as does the big blind...the original raiser calls.


The turn is a Q. It is checked to me and I check. No bet is made. With 5 players still in the hand would it have been correct for me to bet my KK?


The river is a 9 still no flush out there. The original raiser bets out and I call. Everyone else folds and he shows AK and I take down the pot.


Any comments?

Good question, if you are going to call a turn and river bet, you may want to bet this 2nd queen to eliminate any underpairs from drawing out. I would assume that is what the other two callers were playing (poorly if they were, even worse if they were suited connectors -- great game!). That leaves 3 aces and two-two outers on the turn. Based on the results of this hand, I think they can put you on AQ since no one else has it and you win on the turn. Since this is a big pot, I think you want to win it as soon as possible and eliminate the draw players If you get raised, unless you are playing against a very tricky player, you should be able to safely fold the turn to what is either a Q or a full house with this board.

Three of the four players were sufficiently tricky that I feel I would have HAD to call them if they raised. In fact, the fella with AK said he was planning to check raise the turn and was disappointed that I didnt bet. He said it make it much harder for him to win the pot. This was part of the reason I didnt bet the turn.

Then it was probably a good play. In wild games like this, I tend to do a lot of checking and calling with superior starting hands if I think they have a chance of holding up..

if the chances were good that you might be bluff check raised here then i think that a bet on the turn is called for. as i was reading the post i was thinking, gee if ever there was a good time to checkraise and represent a Q this would be it (huge pot).


if you would have bet the turn and cleared the two bozos out behind you, then the original raiser's checkraise would have obviously been called down and he throws away 3 BBs with a hand drawing to 2 or 3 outs.


sure you might be beat here, but it's worth it for the times you hang him with his own rope (plus keep the others from drawing out).

This response sounds a little results oriented. I think you go broke calling check raises down with an overpair to paired queens on the board. Yes this is situational, but in most cases I think you are beat. I would have to see this player make that move several times before I would be comfortable calling him down.


If you still think you have the winner, why not reraise? It may cost you one big bet when he folds, but it puts the tricky player back in line. The makes him more predictable and passive which is the way I prefer he plays.

I think you played it fine.


"The flop comes Q 6 4 rainbow."


Maybe it's from playing no limit, but when I've got KK and there's major heat before the flop and a queen hits the board, I don't like it. Now I lose to BOTH of the hands I likely face, AA and QQ.


So, what would AA do? AA could very well be waiting til the turn to put two-bet pressure on the field, instead of jamming it up on the flop thereby making the field's drawing odds on the turn less bad, and also hampering his chances of even being able to cause two-bet pressure. Then the Q hits the turn, and AA might change plans and back off, fearing a Q in someone's hand just like you did. Besides the points made in favor of caution so far, the possibility of AA (or QQ for that matter) being out adds more merit to trying to get to a cheap showdown in a pot that is so big that it might cause the livelier players to make a two-bet stab on the turn.


Tommy

Yeah, I agree about the danger of holding KK on Q high flops when someone else made it 4 bets preflop.


If you figure 90% of the time someone puts in the 4th bet preflop they have AA-QQ or AKs, on the Q high flop there are 9 hands (75%) he is beating you with, 1 hand (8%) he ties you with, and 2 hands (17%) he is losing with. If you are losing, you have 2 outs. Not a very favorable situation.

This is the most compelling argument I've heard so far. If the pot were heads-up against the four-bettor, I'd say that checking the turn would be almost automatic (way ahead/way behind). But MikeL's point of risking/inducing a check-raise bluff simply to clear out the other opposition really caught my eye.


However, in the end, Coilean makes the most persuasive argument. If his estimate of your opponent's 4th preflop bet is accurate, you really can't like your situation much, but you're really pot-stuck. It's a good time to see a showdown with minimum pain, and this looks like minimum pain.


Regards, Lee

If heads-up, you would check KK. Even as in this situation with 5 opponents, you could check AA (as no one can have a 3 outer if you are ahead).


But with KK against 5 opponents and $900 in the pot, I would bet it. Even if some chap with 77 or 76 or 45 folds (or maybe all of them) and AK calls, you have increased your chances of winning considerably i.e. you go from a potential 9 bad river cards to potentially just 3.


I realize that you could be wasting $80 if you get checkraised (BTW, I would think that you have to call a raise simply because of the pot size, the possibility of hitting a 2 outer and the possibility that your hand is still best) but the pot has $900. Maybe Coilean can do the math if he has the time/inclination.


I also think that given that no one made it 3 bets on the flop, you can discount AA somewhat (although obviously, he may have held back on the flop looking to get a raise in on the turn but note that AA will now be hard pressed to raise the turn so when you bet your KK, it will only cost you $40 and not $80).


Bottom line: Tough situation obviously but given the size of the pot, I think a bet is in order.