Do I have a gambling problem?

The 10-20 hold'em game has busted wide open, and about every 3rd or 4th hand is being capped preflop with 4-6 opponents seeing the flop. I've dropped a rack in the last 1-2 hours, mostly from getting into the middle of raising wars with flush draws and one straight flush draw (I was the instigator of the raising war in that hand /images/wink.gif), but not getting there. I'm down to 2 stacks, and look down to see JTs in middle position. A loose aggressive player (LAP) open raises, a loose passive player calls (LPP), and a normally excellent player who is now drunk and losing (EDP) makes it 3 bets in front of me. Normally this is an easy fold for me, but I can see several players ready to call behind me, and EDP has been giving a lot of preflop action now that he's losing and drinking, so I decide to take a gamble at a big pot and call. To make a long story short, a maniac in the BB caps it off, and 7 of us see the flop with 28 small bets in the pot.


The flop comes Js Ts 6h, making me top two pair with a spade draw on board. It's checked to LAP, who bets. LPP calls, EDP raises, I reraise, the drunk loose aggressive player (DLAP) in the small blind calls, LAP calls, LPP folds, EDP caps it, and 4 of us see the turn with 22.5 bets in the pot.


The turn brings the 7s, possibly completing a flush or straight. DLAP bets out, LAP folds, and EDP calls. I am a little suspicious of DLAP's bet because he has been pushing draws hard, but frequently check raising when he makes a strong hand. So I raise, hoping for a free showdown if I don't improve, but am foiled as DLAP reraises. As I made my raise EDP laughed and blurted out "Oh, you idiot!", and seems pissed when he calls the reraise. This has me somewhat concerned, because EDP is probably the best hand reader I have ever seen when he's sober. Anyway, I call the raise, after which EDP comments, "Good hand [DLAP], you must have him beat since he didn't reraise." The pot now has 31.5 big bets, and 3 of us see the river.


The river brings the Ac. DLAP bets, EDP slings his cards into the muck, and I make a crying call.


Comments, especially on the turn play? I thought the turn raise was a decent play until EDP blew up. Like I say, he's an exceptional postflop player (one of the best I know), and would probably crucify the game if he would gamble less preflop and keep his 'A' game together when he's losing. As it is, he still wins, but not nearly as much as he should.

Coilean,


Wow, I'm a little surprised at you. Not disappointed, just surprised, as by your posts I just I wouldn't expect you to get involved in this hand, but I can understand. I'm not saying that I could never make this call, but you know as well as I the problems with this type of hand for so many bets, especially when the three-better is, in your oppinion, an excellent player. You didn't really say how much he loosens up when drunk, but you know that even drunk, this player is still dangerous and that he's going to make this hand expensive for you if he does in fact have a big hand. It looks like he had KK or maybe QQ w/ a spade and so had up to 16 outs on the turn against you himself. What would he expect you to three-bet the flop with, what about the other drunk? The turn card is terrible for you, I understand why you raised, but under the circumstances there is pretty good chance that you might even be third best, the way this hand is playing. If one of the two players has a set you're in real bad shape and neither of them are going to fold a better hand or a good draw. Easy for me to say, knowing(guessing?) how the hand played out, but that turn card is, as one friend of mine puts it, "a hospital card." As for the call on the river, obviously the pot's too big to muck now. Hope you won, but my guess(in case it hasn't been obvious) is that you're beat, otherwise you wouldn't be second-guessing yourself quite so much. Whether you won or not, I hope your session turned around, if not, tomorrow's another day.


Mike

With all due respect--because, like Mike, I put you on extremely high intelligence and analytical ability--when you're in this type of game and you're down heavily, then I think you're looking for the flop to hit you with the near nuts, and to not be half so dangerous as it was.


It's easy, particularly if one is as good a player as you obviously are, to tell yourself that you can out-think a game like the one you describe. And you can, against maybe one or two--but this flop just has too many possibilities and too many hangers-on for mere mortals to foresee all outcomes.


Personally, I think it's a good sign that you're examining your play instead of whining about being outdrawn by crazies, if in fact you were beat. Hang in there, and please keep posting--I learn from you. Thanks.

When I say EDP was giving a lot of preflop action, I meant I had seen him raise a T7s preflop from middle position and raise a hand or two in the blind from early position. He'd made enough other raises and reraises where his hand didn't get shown that I figured he had to be raising with a lot of substandard hands (knowing him, probably mostly mediumish suited cards). Based on this previous action, I figured he'd be as likely to be reraising preflop on this hand with a good multiway hand (like a suited connector or small pair) as a group 1-2 hand. Even when he isn't drunk, he is one of those exceptional postflop players that figures he can gamble some preflop (especially when it figures to be a big pot), and make it back on later streets. He is an excellent hand and player reader, however. I once saw him put a player on a hand so accurately that he called a raise on the river with an unimproved T9 (yes, ten high) and win the pot. At the time, he said "I would have reraised, but I was afraid I would lose my nerve and fold if he raised it again." Lol!

If I'm gambling preflop in a jammed-up game and know it, and I hit the flop hard, I feel obligated to win or lose the maximum. With the pedal down, no way I'd miss the turn raise. Good follow-through bet, IMO, whatever the results.


I don't think binging = problem, so you're okay on that.


Tommy

Even if players are raising with next to nothing, your implied odds are so hurt by the 3-bet-probable-cap that I would fold preflop.


On the flop, the board is so full of draws that I might wait to the turn to raise. Not as a slowplay, but to avoid investing a lot of money if a really bad card comes, and to increase the chances that I can knock people out on the turn.

I don't like your preflop call of a double raise cold with J10s. Your playing into there hand when you start making bad calls like this. One of the big edges of solid players is not making these types of calls. When the loose players will. I think you have to ask yourself would I call 3 bets cold in this spot if you were even or winning. My guess the answer would be no. If thats the case then it was a tilt call. That you were trying to justify. The game may be loose. But I doubt its loose enough to expect to get the necessary action behind to justify calling 3 bets cold.


Flop I like. Turn I would just call. There is nobody behind you to eliminate to protect your hand against. And even though he may go for checkraises in other situations. In a pot this size I don't thiink he would be playing around with all that flop action. And even if your hand is good there are many cards to beat you on the river with the 3 spades and 3 straight cards out there. And you position will not be able to get anybody out. Had the raiser been to your imediate right i would be more inclined to raise because if my hand is good I protect it against the rest of the feild. River I would call.

Well, I'm thrilled to report this story had a happy ending. DLAP says, "A pair of 7's" after I call him. I'm a little in shock that I might win, and I say, "Pocket sevens?" (for a set on the turn). He just looks at me, so I show my JT and drag the pot. He lifted his hand up high as he mucked, and I think I caught a glimpse of the 8s, giving him 14 outs to beat me on the river with a weak flush (1 of them being a straight flush), a gutshot, or trips. EDP bolts for the restroom mumbling something about "fucking idiot", and when he comes back a few hands later, he says he had the same hand I did (JTs). He continues to mumble something about "idiots" for the rest of the night, probably directed at DLAP (whom he apparently drove down to the room with). This is about the first time I've seen him misread a hand this badly and get unhinged. I also found out later that LAP folded a KQ on the turn (which would have won by making a straight on the river), because he thought might be paying 2-3 bets to draw dead against a flush. So I really lucked out, and dodged quite a few bullets on this hand. /images/wink.gif


Anyway, I agree that the preflop call is a marginal one at best. I don't think JTs is inherently a money loser when this many players see a capped flop with you, but I do think any money it may make is not worth the gigantic fluctuations you can expect to put your stack through when you make this call with much frequency.


I think there may be a lot to recommend DeadBart's suggestion of waiting until the turn to raise. When I reraise the flop, I leave 3 players behind me to face 3 small bets cold, and 2 more to call 2 cold. But if I wait until the turn to raise (and the bet comes from the same place in front of me), I may get to make 5 players call 2 big bets cold. Because of the flop calls, the players will probably get about the same odds to call and see the river as they would have gotten if I reraised the flop, but they should be less inclined to chase 3-4 outers with only 1 card left to come, and I put pressure on 5 players instead of 3. Some downsides of waiting until the turn to raise are that I may let some of the players who would have folded on the flop pick up backdoor draws to beat me (straights, trips, or higher 2 pairs), and that someone else may take the initiative by reraising the flop and change where the bet on the turn comes from. So the decision to wait until the turn to raise may not be a clear cut one, but it's definitely something to consider.


I'm still not sure how I feel about my raise on the turn. In the last few hours I had seen DLAP jam the turn with just a draw more than a few times, so I should maybe be more cautious playing at him with a medium strength hand that he can reraise with nothing, when I really just want to get to the showdown cheaply and see if I won this already monstrous pot. On the other hand, I shouldn't be too unhappy if DLAP will spew chips with an inferior hand when given the opportunity, and I don't want to let either of the players still in the hand try to knock me off this monster without paying the max. With these factors counteracting each other, this also might not be a clear decision one way or the other.

I am sure that there is a simple answer, but my first thought was about your flop play. WIth the pot so big and the chance of being reraised if you raise I wonder if it may have been better to just call the flop, especially with the dangerous board. Then if a blank hits on the turn you may be able to raise and knock some people out. But you certainly have the best hand and I cant criticize you for aggressive play, in the heat of battle I would probably have raised also.


i know the response is that since the raise was directly to your right you can reraise and force people to colcall. But with the pot that size anyone with a draw is staying in even for two bets. But I am a stud player so what do I know.


Pat