Unusual pot odds situation

Friday night 10-20 game that had a forced straddle in it i.e. we all take turns putting out a live straddle.


I pick Up 9c7c as my straddle hand.


2 early limpers and button makes it 30 to go. Both blinds call as do I. The fella to my immediate left now makes it $40 and the button caps. I decide to toss in another $20. We have 6 way action and the pot is $300.


Flop: Kc8h2d


The fella to my immediate left bets $10 and goes all in. Next guys calls and the button raises. Small blind folds and the big blind calls. The pot has $360. If the other player to my left who still has chips left calls (and it sure looks like he will), the pot will have $370. So, should I call for $20?


Anyway, I did call. Pot has $390. 4 live (no pun intended) players and one player is all-in.


Turn: Tc giving me 15 outs (the second best card I could find on the turn).


Button bets and all 3 of us call. Would anyone care to raise once the button bets and the big blind calls?


River: 6s...cha ching!


I felt that the button would bet and also felt that the bb would make a crying call. That's what happened. I checkraised. Button made it 3 bets. bb now folded. I made it $80 and button called.


I sucked out and won a huge $650 pot.


Anyway, the big questions are these:


1. Has anyone ever played a forced straddle game...lol...what a riot


2. Was I nuts on the flop? For that matter, was I nuts preflop.


3. Any comments on possibly raising the turn?


Coilean...hope you got a sharp pencil /images/smile.gif

You're getting 18 to 1 with 2 runner-runner draws, and you're action closes the betting. No, I don't think you're nuts. In fact, this is the kind of play that often leaves the Ok players scratching their heads wondering, how the heck you got there?! And maybe deceives them about your play for awhile. I LOVE when this happens /images/smile.gif


I still wouldn't call you nuts if you had check/raised the turn getting 3 to 1 on your money with all those outs, although both draws are not to the nuts.


Pre-flop I think you have to play when on the installment plan. Had you known or even suspected that it was going to go to 5 bets it might be different, but how could you have? Sweet win!

The first call preflop is a no brainer. After it gets capped, it looks like you'll be getting 14-1 odds, but your implied odds are now much less attractive. I'd call, but I think it's closer than some will think, mainly due to being out of position.


It looks like you will be getting 18.5-1 on your flop call. Again, close, but the call seems like the way to go. Your hand will certainly be well disguised if you make it.


On the turn, a checkraise doesn't seem like a good idea to me. I don't think you have any chance of winning this pot without improving; the pot is so big that a lot of longshot hands should still call. But your raise may be enough to drive out the player on your left and maybe even the BB. If you thought catching a pair might be good enough to win then this wouldn't be so bad, but that seems awfully unlikely. You also will not get anyone with two pair or a set to fold on this board, so you can't gain by making the 8c and 2c turn into outs when they would have filled someone before.


On the river, you played perfectly. The button 3 betting is just gravy; did he have a set?


David

I've played 20-40 forced straddle several times at Casino Arizona. Sometimes these games go for 12 hours or more. Willy Neuman, who writes an occasional article in Card Player, is usually the instigator. Especially if I am in the game.


Generally, you would have to be nuts to open the betting without raising, so the the pots get real big real fast. Very few players respect the raise, since they know you are trying to knock them out, so there are lots of players in every pot.


There is lots of gambling, and always a showdown. You have to make a hand to win. That's why I wouldn't have raised the turn with your hand. I think raising would be close to a break-even play, but since there is already such a high variance in the game, I try not to do anything to increase it.


As for the call on the flop, you wouldn't be in this game if you didn't have a little gamble in you. But, as Rick always says, it can't be very wrong.

Nice hand and pot, Mr. SKP!


I'll take a stab at your questions:


1. No, but sounds like fun, expecially w/the opponents you describe.


2. Preflop, I think you did fine. Calling 10 more after the button raise seems clear. When it comes back capped, I wouldn't have been thrilled about it but I'd call 20 more here getting 15-1. On the flop, I think it's close between folding and calling. On the negative side: A. Your backdoor flush is not a nut draw B.If you pick up a 4-card straight draw on the turn it may not be to the nuts, or nuts both ways as happened C. Someone may have a set, negating some of your outs. On the positive side, the pot is very big, and if you make a straight or flush you can expect a big payoff - hey, that's what happened! :-)


3. I don't think anyone folds, so raise the turn for value? I probably wouldn't, mainly because it looks like the button has a set of kings, so he'll probably reraise, possibly driving out others, and if the river is a club that pairs the board you're not happy.

He had KT (and had I been him, I too would have 3 bet as surely, he could not put me on 97 or a set except maybe 66).


BTW, do I have a call on the flop if the flop was Kc3h2d or if it was Kd8s2h i.e. I only have one backdoor draw working for me instead of two?

I think your calls were VERY marginal, but definitely ok. I'm surprised the anti-variance faction hasn't killed you on this... I love what plays like this do to the other players. I was playing in a game yesterday where I got on the installment plan for 4 bets preflop in late position with A9s. The flop was something like 7 8 J rainbow and there was only one bet so I was getting something like 20:1 right there with my cheesy gutshot and only one player after me who seemed just as trapped as I was preflop. On the turn (very blank, like a 2 or something) I was still getting like 13:1, and the player behind me had folded so I closed the action. The river was an ace. The same guy bet and everyone folded to me. I made a crying call because I figure I'll win this more than 1 in 15 times. Sure enough the bettor had KK. Boy, he was pissed. But I figure he deserved it for his limp-reraising crap with KK. Had he just raised, I would never have been in there in the first place. Variance is a small price to pay for tilting your opposition, imho.

Good Flop Call.


You can't be much worse than a 12 to 1 dog

and you're getting much more than that.

1. I've never played a live straddle game, and it sounds like I should avoid them until I have a bigger bankroll to play with. /images/wink.gif


2. Preflop, I think you have to call the first time, and just got unfortunately trapped for the extra 2 bets after that. On the flop, you are about a 11:1 dog to make a straight or flush by the river with a 3 card straight flush. Without both backdoor draws, you are a 23:1 dog to make a backdoor flush, or a 21.5:1 dog to make a backdoor straight -- so you really do need both draws to make a call worthwhile on the flop, even with your ridiculous 17:1 pot odds to call the raise cold. I think a good rule of thumb is to call when getting 10-15:1 on the flop (depending on the "nutness" of your backdoor draws), and are quite sure there won't be more raises behind you. Having a 3 flush/straight on the flop rates about the same as having a 2 outer with a pocket pair, except it has higher implied odds (since you usually won't be calling the turn unless it becomes a legitimate hand with 4-15 outs) and you might have additional ways to win by making runner runner trips or 2 pair.


3. On the turn, you have a legitimate value raise opportunity since you are 1:2 to make your hand, and will be getting 3:1 on any money you put in with 3 players still in. If there is much chance of a reraise which will knock some players out, you probably want to avoid making this play though -- if even one player folds, your raise is an even odds wash which just increases your fluctuations. I would usually pass on a 1:2 value raise in this situation unless there were 4 other players in, because of the high fluctuations it creates and the possibility of a reraise lowering the odds you get on the play. In this case, we can see from a results oriented perspective that the button would probably have made it 3 bets with his top 2 pair, which might have knocked out the other players and left you getting only 1:1 for your money on the raise.


There's nothing quite like dragging a monster pot with a runner runner hand. It sure does help loosen up your image with players who don't understand the value of backdoor draws when the pot gets this big. /images/wink.gif

skp,


I think that your call pre-flop is OK.


In contrast to the other responses I hate your call on the flop. The pot is offering you 18:1 and you have no hand. All you have is a runner-runner draw and not even a very good one (since your flush draw is a long way from the nuts). The player to your left could make it 3-bets (and the button may raise to 4 bets) although this is unlikely given the way the player to your left has acted so far. The action so far indicates that the BB probably has a hand and intends to make it as expensive as possible for you to draw. IMHO this is a clear fold.


Finally, I wouldn't raise the turn.


-- Manzanita

Although your 12-1 is probably about right, you need to take into account the fact that you will sometimes be forced to call a turn bet (or possibly more, which is a semi-disaster) and then go on to fold on the river. So you need to take into account effective odds rather than just pot odds. This is covered well in TTOP but not very thoroughly in HPFAP , probably because in hold-em you will rarely go for runner runner draws, but you will almost always have effective odds to play a flush or open-ended straight draw.

Yeah - DS mentions the runner^2 thing, but it doesn't seem to play a huge role in hold'em. One of the big problems I have adjusting to Omaha is realizing just how huge that effect can be. You can have 12 outs to 15-outers and mishigas like that.


But bottom line, I think skp had a pretty clear call on the flop.


Regards, Lee