Mason's hand to talk about

I guess I've really come a long way over the past couple years.


Several hours ago I read the "Hand to Talk About" post below, but it only just now occured to me that Mason had raised with the inferior hand and that the better starting hand lost.


All I kept thinking was "this dumb-ass keeps calling bets and raises from out of position with a weak ace! Even after whiffing the flop!".


I used to think position was over-rated. Now I'm possibly leaning too far and I think the cards are over-rated.


natedogg


PS: By the way Mason, would you have made the same play with AK? I suspect the main reason you checked the turn was that if he bet the river, you were giving yourself a big chance to earn a bluff-catching bet. If you bet the turn and he calls or raises, you're less likely to be winning. With that in mind, do you make the same play with AK, especially if you do suspect that he has a worse ace? Ni han!

In my opinion it is a good/common play with the AK.


What disturbs me the most about Mason's play is that

he indicated he would also check with JT. I know

Masons probably your hero, but I think most experts,

if not all would bet the turn. Dont read too much into that

play. Even though all the criteria was met for inducing a

bluff (as Mason pointed out in his final comments), I

don't think JT is strong enough for this play to be

more profitable then betting.


>>All I kept thinking was "this dumb-ass keeps calling bets and >>raises from out of position with a weak ace! Even after >>whiffing the flop!".


He only called the first bet..Mason checked the turn.

If anything the opp. was an idiot for betting the river with

Ace high against a steal raiser.


I know you play a lot on paradise Nate...And these

players can truly be "extrememly loose aggressive". I think I

have made more money by opp's putting moves on

me when I have this holding, then by getting fancy.


I do like this play when holding (QK or AQ) with a Q on the

board.


>>I used to think position was over-rated.


It's easy to think that. Once the concept of position really

"clicks", a whole new world will open up.


The key for me is to realize good position is used on all

betting rounds, including preflop.


Here are some examples of play on the button:


Preflop: (77), strong EP raiser, 1 opp when the action gets to you....Fold (As Abdul Jalib indicates on his web site, your

calling requirments should generally be 2 notches better

then your opponents raising requirements...So with pockets,

if you opp will raise 77 in EP, you need 99 to call)


Flop: You can raise your draws for freecards thus drawing

hands go up in value in LP..... You can fold you QJx for 2 bets

on a J94 flop. In EP or MP you can easily get trapped in the

middle.


Turn: You can take free cards, or you can raise a mediocre

holding with the intention of checking down if you dont improve.


River: All your reads from previous rounds come crashing down into one last decision of your hand...Should you call

your opp? Should you bet/raise for value?

You cannot survive a tough without knowing how to value bet

.(My favorite new play is the AK/AQ high value bet,

I'm 4-0-1 on this play the last month).


You also never have to play a guessing game as to whether you

should or shouldn't check raise the turn and river.

Your favorite new play is some value bet because it worked a few times last month? That doesn't mean anything. Well one night I flopped a set each time I held pocket 4's (4 times). Maybe that should be my new "favorite" hand.

I know Masons probably your hero


Don't be so condescending. What have I ever posted to give you that impression anyway?


He only called the first bet..Mason checked the turn.

If anything the opp. was an idiot for betting the river with

Ace high against a steal raiser.


See! I'm even more extreme than you realized. When I said "calling bets and raises from out of position" I was also referring to the preflop bet. Yes, I think defending his blind with A9o is a bad play. And calling the flop is even worse.


Either re-raise preflop and bet the flop or get rid of it. What are you hoping to do? Catch a three outer? Outplay your opponent from out of position with only ace high? Being out of position is SO MUCH more important here than having the better starting hand of A high. If you are facing an opponent who will call your re-raise and flop bet with nothing and then bet when you check the turn, you are not in a very profitable situation here. And calling along is even worse.


Defending your blind against this kind of button-raiser with a crappy ace is a wash at best.


The key for me is to realize good position is used on all

betting rounds, including preflop.


I couldn't agree more.


Regarding Mason's hand, I would probably bet the turn in this situation myself. Mostly I am banking on the fact that since I open-raised on the button and keep betting when checked to, I assume he will assume I have nothing and either call me down or bluff-raise me. But I generally favor a style of betting out when I have it to hopefully inspire unwise action from an aggressive opponent. /images/smile.gif


You cannot survive a tough (game?) without knowing how to value bet.(My favorite new play is the AK/AQ high value bet,

I'm 4-0-1 on this play the last month).


This seems like wishful thinking to me. This play is more crucial in heads up and 3 handed play, I believe. Then again, I believe in my reads too and often face criticism for acting on them. If you really truly knew your opponent would call with a weaker ace high, then you are awesome.


natedogg

"Yes, I think defending his blind with A9o is a bad play. And calling the flop is even worse.

Either re-raise preflop and bet the flop or get rid of it."


this wasnt mentioned below in the initial thread and i think this really calls into question mason's description of his BB oppponent as "extremely loose aggressive" (his exact words).


an "extremely loose aggressive" player would almost surely reraise preflop with an A here, and certainly do more than check-call the flop and check the turn. this player was plenty loose, but not anywhere as aggressive as mason suggested.


the check behind on the turn play that mason made was based partially on the reasoning that the LA BB player would then bet the river with a worse hand. given how passively the bb played this hand id say there was a much less than 50% chance that he would bet the river. although there's an outside chance bb is severely slowplaying a monster, hence appearing so passive, i think his passivity would indicate a bet on the turn.


any comments?

wait im not done:


scalf in talking about the hand said: "due to opponents very aggressive nature"


what?? everyone just took for granted that this BB was so aggressive but he played it like a pansy. one other big factor here: mason is on an obvious button steal and the tabel is SIX-HANDED. wow, that's getting into almost shorthanded territory!


so the guy just called 6 handed when the button open raised and then proceeded to check-call the flop and check the turn. this guy played so so passively given the circumstances.


erase the whole hand to talk about below, and all the posts that followed which failed to pick up on this inherent flaw. it came to a conclusion about a neat play based on entirely contradictory information. miscarriage of justice, abomination, etc, etc.

>>I know Masons probably your hero


>>Don't be so condescending. What have I ever posted to give you

>>that impression anyway?


Sorry. Actually Bob Ciaffone is my hero.


>>Yes, I think defending his blind with A9o is a bad play


Hope your not serious vs. a lone steal raiser.

You will get eaten alive. Remember the object of defending

the big blind is to lose less than the bb itself.


I don't like to reraise from bb often with it and dont agree its a good play, but who said you

have to check fold if you miss the flop? If the flop comes 742, why not check-raise sometimes?

You probably have the best hand.


And another reason to defend, is that hold'em is a game

of many hands...Not just one at a time. If you only defend

with the top 20% of starting hands, your good opp's will never

let you see a flop for free. Anyways, Im positive that A9

will lose less then by folding bb in long run against a known thief. And of course it

depends somewhat on how much your opp. raises when he is in a steal position.


>>If you really truly knew your opponent would call with a weaker ace high, then

you are awesome.


First of all my original point was only that you have to get good at value betting.

Not good at value betting AK high (lol).


Unfortunately you seem to think its impossible and Goat thinks Im only

being results oriented.


I probably faced this situation 100's to 1000's of times the last month alone

(yes I play a lot) and only bet a small %.

Yes my results were good, but my bets on the river were not whims..They

were well thought out, and I felt deep inside that they were the best hand.


Here is an simple example:


You have AKx early position. UTG raises, you just cold call. All else fold.


Flop comes 249 (or 886)

Opp bets, you call

Turn airball (10 or less)

Opp checks

You bet.

River air.

Opp checks

You bet again.


Your opp would have been an abolsute fool for not betting a small pair on

the turn against one opp. Give them SOME credit.


Here is a more obvious example of a hand I just played at the start

of this post, where I feel it's a more obvious value bet that most people

will make, but for some reason the 1st example is less obvious to

them.


Dealt KK

1 limper

I Raise from MP

Button cold calls, BB calls.


Flop (963)

I bet, button call, bb calls.

Turn 3 (9633)

I bet, button calls, bb folds.

River 9 (96339)

I bet, button calls.

I win.


>>But I generally favor a style of betting out when I have it to hopefully inspire unwise

action from an aggressive opponent.


My thoughts exactly....


P.S. I highly recommend getting lessons from my hero Bob Ciaffone.

You can't go wrong with his style of play.

CreamPuff, maybe people would respect your value bets with AK more if you made up a fake middle eastern name and threw in some intellectual sounding mumbo jumbo. Like Abdul or Sredni...


Anyway, yes, there are certainly occasions when you can value bet AK. Don't listen to those who claim to be thinking outside the box and then act like noone ever calls them with an ace high.

Even very aggressive players sometimes play a hand more passively. If Mason (or anyone else posting a question) says that this opponent is very loose aggressive, we should answer the question assuming that this is true. We can't assume that the one hand presented makes us more able to judge a player than someone who is actually in a game with them.


In fact, I think that the opponent's passivity in this hand is part of what makes the check on the turn better. If a usually agressive opponent is playing passively, it makes it more likely than usual that he is slowplaying, or else really has nothing at all. And it's in these two circumstances that the check is the right play.


David

I said:

>>Yes, I think defending his blind with A9o is a bad play

You said:

Hope your not serious vs. a lone steal raiser.


Absolutely. I believe most otherwise expert players over-defend their big blind. They underestimate how much the position really hurts them. Now, I'm focusing on over-defending against a tricky aggressive opponent. Against an overly loose opponent or one that will always fold if you bet a flop they missed, or is otherwise predictable in some way, there's value there. I don't think there's a lot of value to be had in trying to outplay a good player when heads up out of position with a weak hand, when the game is not a shorthanded game. Your overall EV there is pretty close to a wash, IMO, especially in a raked game.


You will get eaten alive.

Actually, this is not true. I've played in very tough limit games and never was put in a situation where my blinds were getting robbed so much I lost money. In shorthanded games, the blind play becomes different, but I'm mostly talking about 9 handed games.


Personally, I'm winning more since I started defending my blind less. If someone starts attacking it too much, I will play back and usually they back off. If I'm in a bad spot where a very over aggressive yet tricky and smart player is always attacking my blinds, I move seats. Being put into a situation where you feel you have to defend your blind with A9o is a BAD situation. That is poor game selection. Move seats or move on.


Now on the interesting part....


An example you gave of value betting AK:

Summary: You have AK on the button and call a preflop raiser on the flop when it comes babies. The turn comes T or less and he check-calls when you bet. You follow through on the river when it's a brick.


You said: Your opp would have been an abolsute fool for not betting a small pair on the turn against one opp. Give them SOME credit.


Unless he's making the same move on you that Mason did with the QJ hand below, right? This whole situation is very interesting and I believe is the crux of high level (skillwise not stakes wise) limit hold'em, and the importance of position.


If I'm at all familiar with your play, I'm going to check-raise with an overpair and even an underpair and check-call with a lot of hands to induce a bluff, perhaps even AK so you can overbet AQ, and possibly get you royally trapped if the river comes an ace. In fact, I imagine you get check-raised a lot. If not, you pick good games, because your style would inspire me to check-raise you a lot. /images/smile.gif


Also, if the situation were reversed, wouldn't you continue to bet AK here against the right opponent? So when you check to him, if he's at ALL perceptive it might set off warning bells? And if that's the case, why didn't this check set off warning bells for you?


I'm assuming it's just that you knew this opponent fairly well, which I believe is crucial to winning poker anyway. But if you're facing a clone of yourself, what do you do? Same move? And in that case, does your clone check-raise you with AQ? Good stuff, I look forward to your thoughts.


By the way, you're right. Hand 2 is a much more obvious value bet. Would someone even dispute it?


natedogg