Early-round Pre-Flop Betting

[Hood]

I've read a lot here over the last few months and learnt a great deal. One thing that still confuses me is what the aim is with pre-flop betting in the early levels.

Lets say it's on the first hand, you get dealt a decent hand (say AK, AQ, QQ, + cards like KQs?). I generally raise 3x, but I must admit really don't understand why. Being that early on I'm playing very tight, I surely don't want to waste a good starting hand by forcing people to fold.

With say AK, I'm surely looking for callers with dominated hands - AQ, AJ, KQ - who'll be willing to get all their cash in on the flop when an A or K hits. But if that's the case, why the 3x BB raise pre-flop? If the aim here is to build the pot - so that on the flop they're more willing to call decent-sized bets - should that 3x BB be flexible to get in as many players as possible? E.g., if I think that a 3x will only get called by 1 player and the blind, but a min-raise will get 7 callers, should I min-raise instead?

There's also the idea that I don't want rag hands to see the flop with be without paying. The 3x raise stops people with 85 calling me so there not about when an A85 flop comes down. But should pushing out worse hands really be an aim here?

Instead of some hard rules (3x BB with these hands, call with these hands with 2 limpers etc), I think perhaps if I understood the general aim more here then I could adapt it for all situations.

(I think my play drawing hands - pairs up to 88, suited connectors (67s, 78s, 89s, 9Ts) - is pretty sound: I'm looking to get in cheap for the flop by limping. If I don't hit big (big draw, made hand, set), then it's an easy fold. Generally only play in late position, so that A) there's less chance there's a raise behind me and B) I'm in position on the flop if I do hit. If there is a raise behind me, I'll always call a min-raise but rarely a 3x raise. The more limpers before me, the more likely I'll play it (better odds, but also less chance they'll be a raise behind).

I think my main issue is how to play with the big, dominating, hands.).

[fnurt]

With the blinds at 10/20 (for example), it's unrealistic to think in terms of winning someone's whole stack with TPTK. Yes, it happens, but when you find someone willing to go all-in against you with the money this deep, a lot of the time you will be the one walking back to Houston.

Consider a typical scenario where an ace or king flops. Someone bets, you make a pot-sized raise, they push all-in (massively overbetting the pot). If you call, sometimes you will find out they were overplaying AQ or KQ, but more often than not you will lose to 2 pair or a set. It's hard to lay down TPTK on the flop but it's usually right in this situation.

From a theoretical standpoint, holding a strong hand in the early going is tough because you are giving the whole table big implied odds to draw at you. For example, let's say the stacks are T2500 and the blinds are 10/20. You raise to 100 with AA, and it's folded to me. Since it's around 25-1 for me to flop 2 pair or better, and I have a good chance to win your whole stack if I hit my hand, arguably I have the odds to call here without looking at my cards! (In reality, people often overestimate implied odds, since it's hard to get someone to commit their whole stack with the money this deep, and they may have AK instead of AA in which case you certainly aren't getting the whole stack on a raggedy flop.)

By the same logic, if you have AK and are thinking in terms of doubling up on a TPTK hand, I probably have implied odds to call with any dominated ace or king, since on the rare occasions when I flop 2 pair I can get you to put all your money in.

The bottom line is to take it easy with these hands in the easy going. With AK, make a standard 4xBB raise and think in terms of picking up a small pot. Hopefully a dominated ace or king plays with you and you make a few hundred, that's a good result.

With a truly big hand like AA you can play it the same way. You also have the option to make a bigger than normal raise and see if there are any other big hands that will play with you. The logic of this is that it makes little difference whether you win 30 (from the blinds) or 120 (from picking up a couple extra bets when your standard raise gets called), but every once in a while when someone has KK or QQ, you can actually double up.

I don't tend to play like this, but the concept has some appeal, especially online, where you see people going all-in at level 1 with hands like AK and 88.

You will also see people limping with AA at level 1, hoping that someone will flop top pair and go nuts with it. For much the same reason that you shouldn't be thinking in terms of doubling up with AK, I consider this approach to be like playing with fire. When your opponent goes all-in on a 942 flop, does he have A9, or does he have a hand like 22 or even 42s? If you didn't raise, you have no idea.

Hopefully these thoughts are some help to you.

[Hood]

Thanks for the reply, very informative.

You are of course right that it's a bit of a long shot to double up with TPTK.

To summarise, with the 3x (or 4x) pre-flop raise you're looking to thin the field, hopefully getting a couple of callers. The reason you don't want more callers is so that you have a better idea of where you stand on the flop. 1 or 2 callers is a decent amount to 'earn' off a hand like AK, and you may be able to get a bit more out of them on the flop. That's the (very general) idea?

The reason I want to get this clear is I want to be able to be flexible with different situations - so I can adjust to a rather lose/agressive/tight table, or the differents in starting chips at the table etc.

Similarly one could then modify the 'aim' when there's limpers in. From this, I can extrapolate: Lets say I'm in the middle with AK and there's 2 limpers and a min-raise. Now I'm rather happy to take down the pot with 5.5 BB, so I'll bet what I think would be enough to take down the pot (perhaps a pot-sized bet).

Any further comments on how (and, more importantly, the reaons why) others play preflop with dominating hands would be most appreciated.

[Jason Strasser]

Good post, great reply Fnurt.

I just wanted to add a few thoughts. Your goal of raising is to get more money in the pot from hands that you have dominated, or that you are ahead of. However, you must have the patience to let it go when you miss. Unless I am heads up, I usually will check on the flop unless I hit. It sounds basic, but esp. at the lower level sngs, I see many players overplaying AK, or other hands like that.

You raise preflop because you are most likely ahead at that moment and because you can get people to put money in the pot with worse hands. Sure, the flop can change all that, but you must raise preflop. You also must not overplay your hand, otherwise as Fnurt said, if you are willing to take TPTK to the grave with you, then people can and should be calling your preflop raises with weak holdings (if the stacks are right).

Also remember the 5/10 rule, which the gist of it is:

You can make loose calls preflop if it is for 5% or less than your stack, and not more than 10% (5-10% being the gray area). Try to make people violate that rule. In the long run it will be +EV for you.

If my 5/10 rule is wrong, excuse me, but its the working version I use. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[poboys]

[ QUOTE ]


I've read a lot here over the last few months and learnt a great deal. One thing that still confuses me is what the aim is with pre-flop betting in the early levels.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not being a smartass here, but the goal is to build your stack. Also, this brings up a good point, you should have a goal on how you want to play the hand. Don't think that you have to play AA the same way every time.

[ QUOTE ]

Instead of some hard rules (3x BB with these hands, call with these hands with 2 limpers etc), I think perhaps if I understood the general aim more here then I could adapt it for all situations.

(I think my play drawing hands - pairs up to 88, suited connectors (67s, 78s, 89s, 9Ts) - is pretty sound: I'm looking to get in cheap for the flop by limping. If I don't hit big (big draw, made hand, set), then it's an easy fold. Generally only play in late position, so that A) there's less chance there's a raise behind me and B) I'm in position on the flop if I do hit. If there is a raise behind me, I'll always call a min-raise but rarely a 3x raise. The more limpers before me, the more likely I'll play it (better odds, but also less chance they'll be a raise behind).


[/ QUOTE ]

Your play of the suited connectors and small pairs (in the early rounds) is how most people play them. So, keep this strategy in mind when you play your big hands.

I think position is very important as well. In late position, you can raise to thin the field. Hopefully you'll get one caller and play with a lot of dead money (people who limped then folded to your big raise). In early position you can either raise and hope to get one or two callers or limp and either hope to re-raise or have the flop hit you very hard.

Also consider how the other players -- are they aggressive or tight early on? Usually in the low-buyin SnGs you have a few maniacs on the table that will either bluff-all in or call an all in with TP thinking that you must be bluffing.

My experience has been that if you raise 3-4xBB, in the early rounds, people will put you on AA,KK,QQ,AK,AQ. Some tricky players will call your large bets pre-flop and either hope that the flop hits them hard or represent top pair if the flop does not contain AK.

You can also slowplay these hands which either lead nice sized pots or an early exit.

So, that's not a general strategy per se, but some suggested ways to play these hands. Hopefully this presents something you haven't already thought about.

[Hood]

[ QUOTE ]
I just wanted to add a few thoughts. Your goal of raising is to get more money in the pot from hands that you have dominated, or that you are ahead of.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is where people differ in their opinions. I agree that what you want to do is get more money in the pot when you have the better hand. However many people state (e.g. poboys post above) that you should raise the thin the field - because your hand will win more often with less players.

I've always subscribed to the first way of thinking, but then I come from a limit ring game background and have old recently moved over to no limit SNGs. I was wondering if this still stands.

[ QUOTE ]
However, you must have the patience to let it go when you miss. Unless I am heads up, I usually will check on the flop unless I hit. It sounds basic, but esp. at the lower level sngs, I see many players overplaying AK, or other hands like that.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes, I agree, and am usually willing to give up with AK or other overcards on a flop if I respect any action.


[ QUOTE ]
You raise preflop because you are most likely ahead at that moment and because you can get people to put money in the pot with worse hands. Sure, the flop can change all that, but you must raise preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]This is where I get somewhat confused. If you aim to build the pot preflop from players with worse hands (and if you've got AK, it's fair to presume that's every one), why raise 3x BB?

In my experience, 3x BB is seen by most as representing a strong hand. If I think I can get more money (but more callers) in the pot with a min-raise, shouldn't I do that instead? Whenever this is suggested, 2+2ers always reply 'awful play, increases variance, etc'.

Don't get me wrong, I never min-raise in this situation, but the thread has got me thinking why.

[ QUOTE ]

Also remember the 5/10 rule, which the gist of it is:
You can make loose calls preflop if it is for 5% or less than your stack, and not more than 10% (5-10% being the gray area). Try to make people violate that rule. In the long run it will be +EV for you.

If my 5/10 rule is wrong, excuse me, but its the working version I use. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for reminding me of that... I do remember reading that somewhere. But again, I'd be interested to know where that data came from /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thanks for the great reply.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
It sounds basic, but esp. at the lower level sngs, I see many players overplaying AK, or other hands like that.



[/ QUOTE ]

*Raises hand* That's me. I'll almost ALWAYS fire off another bullet if I'm the pre-flop raiser and it gets checked to me. My problem is when I get called on the flop. Then what? I shut it down, but on occasion I could have extracted another bet from a flush or straight draw. Of course, when I shut it down I'm just begging to get bluffed out on the river. Urgh.

[Hood]

Thanks for the reply.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I've read a lot here over the last few months and learnt a great deal. One thing that still confuses me is what the aim is with pre-flop betting in the early levels.


[/ QUOTE ]

Not being a smartass here, but the goal is to build your stack. Also, this brings up a good point, you should have a goal on how you want to play the hand. Don't think that you have to play AA the same way every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your right of course, the goal is to build your stack. I meant slightly more specifically how people think their betting/raising achieves this, and how much value they this is 'deserving' of certain hands.

[ QUOTE ]

Your play of the suited connectors and small pairs (in the early rounds) is how most people play them. So, keep this strategy in mind when you play your big hands.

I think position is very important as well. In late position, you can raise to thin the field. Hopefully you'll get one caller and play with a lot of dead money (people who limped then folded to your big raise). In early position you can either raise and hope to get one or two callers or limp and either hope to re-raise or have the flop hit you very hard.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this bit still about suited connectors or big dominating cards here? I presume the latter. Above you've said the aim is to build your stack - why would you want to thin the field?

[Jason Strasser]

Crisbrown, maybe my favorite poster on 2+2, said that when you play AA, the optimal way to play it is to get as much money in the pot preflop as possible, and keep the small postflop unless you improve. Now I don't follow that by the book, but I love what it says conceptually.

In a ring game, ideally the bet you want to make with a premium hand that has most other hands dominated, is one that will build the biggest pot preflop. I think Roy Cooke, or maybe one of the other people at card player magazine said something along the lines of: If you have an edge, maximizing volume over time is always the best move. So you should maximize volume with AA, and if you do that, over time you will make more money, even though you will lose more hands (assuming you make correct laydowns). However, in a tournament, the more people in a pot means the more chance someone will come up with a hand that beats you.

An aside: When I get AA, KK, AK or a premium hand of that variety, the FIRST thing I tell myself is to slow down. It's a gut reaction to get very happy to see these hole cards, but I always tell myself "be careful". Moving too fast sometimes prevents me from looking at the situation with a clear head.

**aside over**

So in a tournament, with a premium hand, you want to find the correct balance between increasing volume (exploiting your edge with a dominating hand), and reducing the amount of people to the flop so you can reduce variance. Tournaments differ from ring game because you would much rather win the hand than in a ring game. In theory, in a ring game, as long as you are making the biggest pot possible with red aces, and folding when the flop comes JT9 of spades in a 5 way pot, you played the hand great. You should not care how many people saw the flop, you should only care that you got as much money as possible into the pot with a dominating edge. In a tournament, you often need to win the hand now. It is this desperation factor that determines how much you are going bet, and where you choose to be on the exploiting an edge (and increasing volume) vs. variance scale (keeping the pot shorthanded).

I think this is where people came up with 3x BB for the standard raise for premium hands. Usually, with the amount of callers, it is close to the most money possible you can get in a pot with a premium hand--yet you usually do not run the risk of having a big multiway pot and having to throw your hand away. This is what could happen if you decided to min raise. You allow too many people, especially the blinds, to see the flop. This increases variance, and I think this is far from optimal for a tournament, even if you might be able to squeeze a little more volume into the pot.

This post was kindof abstract, yet I hope it was clear in my very strange way.

Good luck.