Grossly Misplayed AA

Wow, did I overplay this hand.


20-40 earlier in the session of my preceeding post.


I open-raise in early position w/ AA, late position player three-bets me, all fold and I just call so I can trap him later(yeah, right). Late position player is fair at best but not terrible, plays and overplays(who am I to talk now) too many hands.


Flop: J-7-6 I check-raise, hoping to get three-bet by an overpair or AJ so I can check-raise the turn(this seems fairly routine) or make AK or something like it put in an extra sb. He calls(maybe my first clue).


Turn: blank, I bet, he raises, I decide(?) that he could be making this play with the aforementioned, hoped for overpair and I reraise!! He calls.


River: blank, I bet he raises and to compound my idiocy, I pay him off. He shows a set of sixes. He later insisted that he had a set of sevens and wanted to know how I could overplay a set of sixes against him, when I said I thought that he showed a set of sixes he insisted that it was sevens, but I'm convinced it was sixes because I remember thinking how obviously overplayed my hand was as I gave so much action to, and couldn't beat bottom set. At some point during our discussion he realized that I must have had AA(probably my insistance that he had 66). Anyway, this is all beside the point.


The point is how grossly I overplayed this hand. When raised on the turn, reraising is obviously a terrible play as I am pretty unlikely to get called by a worse hand, if I'm so convinced that I have the best hand I can always just bet out on the river(saving one of the two bets I threw away) and, I suppose, muck when raised on the river(saving the other bet, which I could have done anyway, but didn't out of incredible stubbornness).


All comments welcome, fire away, obviously I need it, atleast here and now, as this hand was quite an abberation for me. Must have been a little(?!) on tilt due to some previous beats, though I've worked very hard on this aspect of my game, to the point where I HAD been pretty pleased with my effort.


Mike

"At some point during our discussion he realized that I must have had AA(probably my insistance that he had 66)."


what on earth are you doing discussing hands with your opponents? and especially a discussion that reveals to him your mucked hand? this is a pretty big mistake in and of itself, the discussion alone of this hand could cost several future big bets.


>>insert here: information war, hierarchy or fear and all those tommyisms.<<

Mike,


Thanks for the advice. In the above situation, I did not set out to discuss the play of the hand. He asked me how or why I played my hand the way I did implying that I had a set of sixes, when I said that he had the set of sixes, I think he maintained that he had sevens and immediately inferred that I had aces, which I did not confirm or deny.


I appreciate the advice about remaining close-mouthed and while I very often do, I must admit that I do sometimes give away information. I try to be selective and careful about this, doing it mainly to maintain the information that flows in my direction, as I believe that I am far better able to make use of the information that I receive than my opponents are of the information that I give out. You or anyone else have any futher thoughts on this subject? I am interested.


Thanks again,


Mike

When he asks why you played your had that way you can simply say, "I'm just here to have a good time."


Play a sharp game and he should pay off your big hands all night.

Mike-


I really don't see such a gross over-play here. I'll often go 3 bets on the turn w/AA, especially if I did not put in a 4th bet pre-flop and therefore felt my hand was somewhat disguised. I know I might raise the turn with KK,QQ, AJ (if I had AJ), or even TT and AK if I doubted your hand. (You'd never check/raise with 99 or AK?) So making it 3 bets with AA doesn't seem all that out of line to me.


I think when your raised on the river, it's very much a judgement Vs. pot odds call. You can't always fold, but you probably shouldn't always call either. I think this opponent played it well and you were just destined to lose some $$ on this hand. IMO-

"I'll often go 3 bets on the turn w/AA"


obviously you would only want to 3 bet on the turn with one pair if you are playing in an aggressive game, or heads up against a particularly aggressive opponent, who will routinely raise the turn with just a pair (or semibluff). for average (or worse) players the idea of putting 2 big bets in with less than 2 pair on the turn seems maniacal, or at least a "move" at a more advanced skill level than they are willing to learn (which is precisely the case).


i, for one, have never sat in a game where i think it would be appropriate to 3 bet on an expensive street with just one pair. if i were to sit in a game that was playing that tough i would probably get up and find an easier one. of course i realise some people dont have that luxury.

3 betting the turn is a little over-aggressive for my liking. Unless you have an excellent read that your good. Otherwise I just call the turn. And check call the river if he bets.

This play is fairly common at 20-40 and even 10-20...

"This play is fairly common at 20-40 and even 10-20..."


it is NOT common in the loose 10-20 and 15-30 games i play in in LA.

I'm not one to make this play normally, for the reasons that I mentioned in my original post. I have however, seen on occasion players raise or reraise headup on the river w/ as little as top pair, top kicker, with success. Maybe that's what inspired me to make this play(though I try not to be one to jump off a bridge just because everyone else is), but I still feel that the proper play is to only call the raise on the turn and then bet out on the river if I'm so convinced that my AA is good and am afraid of a check-down on the river. This atleast saves one bet when I'm beat and as I pointed out(which just seems obvious) a worse hand is probably not going to call my three-bet, and can't have very many outs(five at most, but far more likely two) anyway.


Thanks for the responses guys,


Mike

Pokerguy,


Thanks, I agree. Until this hand, I think that I would play the hand exactly as you said well over 90% of the time. I think that I got caught up in the idea of trapping this guy with my AA's and not only wasn't I trapping him, but I was running head-first into a buzzsaw. Sure seems like every time I get the least bit out of line(not that I was only a little out of line this time) I get WHACKED. Oh well, I guess that's been a good thing for me in long run, makes me keep striving to play better.


See ya,


Mike

You've got to be kidding... I've heard the games in LA are the most maniacal on the planet.


While raising the turn with position and top pair may not be routine, it's certainly NOT uncommon in the games I play in. In fact, it would be very common for KK,QQ and AJ to raise the turn here and continue to pay off. I do not believe the games I play in are overly tough. I'm not saying that 3-betting from Mike's spot is routine either, but it's a play that should definitely be in one's arsenal when holding AA heads-up. Otherwise, you are simply making the game too easy for your opponents IMO-

I'm confused. The reason you don't 4-bet before the flop, is to gain deception in order to collect extra bets later in the hand. So what's so terrible about 3-betting the turn? Sorry. I don't see the major problem. When you make a plan to set up for future gain, it's poor poker NOT to capitalize on it. That it didn't work is unfortunate, but not necessarily a poor play. IMO-

I'm with Kevin J. here. I don't see this as a gross overplay. Opponent's most likely had is pocket Qs or pocket Ks.

I feel the same way. If I get the least bit out of line it seems like everytime I get punished.


I see what your thinking was. You have AA's heads up and you want to punish them as much as you can. But the fact that he's raising you on the turn you have to give some respect. Because i'm sure your image is one of a very solid player. So they must have something pretty good to raise you on the turn alot of times. And if your good you have them drawing very slim. So it doesn't matter too much about letting them see the river if your ahead. But if your behind you lose less this way. Its not worth trying to get one extra BB on the turn when risking 2 BB on a turn raise the times your behind. I don't think you even have to bet out on the river if you think there's a chance your good. They'll probably bet KK's and QQ's anyway thinking there good because you lack of reraising preflop so you get that extra bet anyway. But save the bet the times your beat. What I like to do is pause on the turn a bit, to make myself look weaker. Make it look like I have a J and debating whether to fold or not. I do this to ensure the fact that they will still bet the river the times I have them beat. When there hoding KK, QQ, or AJ.


But i'm sure you know all this anyway. Like you said you just got caught up in trapping and extracting the most out of your opponent.


Later,


Pokerguy

I think you overplayed your hand and I would suggest a different line of play in the future. Preflop, I think you should four bet and not slow play when you are out of position like this. If you had position over your opponent, then your preflop slow play is good since you can make sure every street gets bet and no free cards are handed out.


Assuming you four bet preflop, you should lead at the flop and keep charging unless you get raised on one of the expensive streets. At that point, you should back off. You are going all the way with your hand in this heads-up situation regardless so you might as well minimize your loss when your pair is beat. I would bet the flop and probably just get called by the set. I would bet the turn and then get raised. I would call. I would check-call the river. You end up losing one extra small bet preflop but you save a some big double bets on the turn and at the river.


A big overpair, especially aces, is still just a pair once the flop comes and a pair is not the world's fair in this game. If you show all the strength preflop and on the flop, when you get popped on the turn you can usually assume that your opponent can beat a one pair hand and that you are chasing. Of course, you will never fold but it is silly to bet a pair as if it were the nuts.

I have to agree with Kevin and Sunglasses Mike. There are many bad players here in the Chicago area $20-40 game. Against the right ones, 3 betting a top pair would be good play. I remember doing it several times and suprising myself that these players can still pay me off without being able to beat me.

Something to think about: Haven't you ever been so successful at deceiving an opponent that they give you so much action that you think you're beat? As I said in the e-mail I sent you, I can imagine several players in our games that could over play KK or QQ against you with this same board. This guy just happened to have a set.


Here's an example that come to my mind:

One game several weeks ago, I was getting poor action on my under the gun raises. I finally got AA so I just limped in. Mike B calls the small blind and the big blind checks. The flop comes King high with two spades. The action is checked to me. I bet, Mike B raises, the BB flods, I reraise, Mike B caps it. The turn card is a 10 of spades. He bets into me. I don't raise as I don't have the ace of spades. The river is a blank. He bets again. I think that he either made a flush or flopped two pair or a set. I felt that I probably lost the hand by not raise my aces. He turns over AK. This was a perfect opportunity for me. You know how he loves to slowroll people, right? He even made his farting noise and said "Sent it" as he turned over AK. I tapped the table like he does, and said, "Good hand. Send it." The whole table laughed and even Mike B took it well. If he had had a set in that hand, I would have looked like I misplayed my hand.

Kevin,


"Plans" in poker can and sometimes should change. I don't feel quite so bad about my three-bet on the turn, though I still think my call on the end was pretty bad. One reason that my plans could have changed is because I did not get the information that I was looking for on the flop(though it could have been even worse if he played his hand faster). When raised on the turn, I am now making about what I'm supposed to on the hand, and though I realize that some of our profit(mine anyway) comes from extracting extra bets, there are many times when a decent opponent(or even a less than decent opponent, playing a particular hand well) is able to minimize his loss with a worse hand against a better hand even when that better hand belongs to a good player. When I get raised on the turn, I think I needed to consider what I was risking compared to what I can gain. As it happens my opponent played his hand well and got probably the maximum out of me, which is, of course, upsetting, but not something that I can't learn from. I still now think better to call the turn and bet the river if I can't bear the thought of this hand being checked-down on the river.


MCVHO,


Mike

Ted,


Yeah, I see this sh** all the time and it blows my mind...multiple big bets--marginal hands. Of course, the first time I try it(three-betting the turn, that is, unless with say a nut flush redraw w/ three of suit already out), it blows up in my face. I suppose I'm not real likely to play with this fire again soon, but not for sure, so don't try any funny stuff against me /images/wink.gif !!


Mike

Yes of course, I have been in such situations. A quick example: Craig(good player) from Mich three-bets on my right preflop, I smooth-call with AA. Flop comes 9 8 x, I raise him on the flop, he three-bets, I call; blank on the turn, I raise him and he three-bets me, I hate it but call; nine pairs on the end(I like this card, as it just about eliminates one possible flopped set) he bets, I call he has KK. My "deception" made me alot of extra bets, but nearly caused me to muck the best hand and definately took a couple of days off my life /images/smile.gif . Who says we're not gamblin' 'specially when we try to get a little fancy.


Mike

Jim,


Even though a couple of posters(whom I do respect) don't think that this is quite so big a mistake, I'm inclined to agree with you, atleast about slowing down when raised on the turn. I'm still going to try to trap opponents with AA even when out of position(especially headup), but you're right, when facing a raise on the turn, I agree, its time to slow down. I think I'm pretty good at getting extra bets out of my opponents(obviously from this hand it's wouldn't be from lack of effort), but I think there's something to be said for just making "what you're supposed to" especially when out of position.


BTW, I've long thought in these terms, that is making "what I'm supposed to" especially when lamenting an occasional missed raise against an opponent who's overplaying his hand anyway. I don't think that I've ever seen this concept in print, at least in so many words; think this needs to be addressed or am I just looking at something obvious in a kind of funny way?


Thanks again,


Mike

"Plans" in poker can and sometimes should change."


Being the good player you are, I just KNEW you'd say this! /images/smile.gif And of course I agree with you. I'm done debating. I can only say that I've had success in picking the right times to 3-bet AA in this spot. I feel it's important to a). Make that extra bet once in a while, b). Let opponents know they can't just raise 4th street with impunity, and c). Prevent it from becoming too easy for them to get away from their hand, which would be true if you only 3 bet with super strong holdings. And of course, I do this only with opponents I feel I have good control over. But I'm still very much in the beginning stages of learning this game and I'm sure I'll be shown the error of my ways with this and many other of the plays I sometimes make, before long.

Kevin,


You make some valid points and I'm not saying that I would NEVER make this play again, only that there are many other spots(i.e. with position) where we can pick up extra bets, and that it is OK to make only what we are "supposed to" on a hand, especially when facing such disadvantages as being out of position.


Mike

You're right, he grossly overplayed pre-flop. However, unless he's a complete moron, when he raised you after you brought it in with a raise, you've got to figure he has something. Once he flopped the set, what else could he do? The fact that you continued to show strength (perhaps excessive?) and he kept on coming, maybe you should have considered that he had at least two pair. From his point of view, all he had to worry about was you having flopped a set of jacks. When you reraised on the turn, it probably crossed his mind that you might have three jacks. But again, would you have folded three sixes if you were in his place? All in all, from the flop on I think he played it just right.

dll,


Yes, I overplayed my hand. My opponent will often be making a mistake by three-betting my early raise. Two pair, given the board, was almost impossible, given the preflop action. My overplay was due the fact that the only hand that I figured could beat mine was JJJ, and I figured that I was more likely to be up against KK or QQ. Live and learn.


Mike

Oh boy, you guys are one serious group of people /images/smile.gif


I want to clarify one thing; my hand in question was pocket sevens even though Mike somehow got so flustered with this beat he somehow didn't look at my winning hand with care after it was turned over for the showdown. Hence came my inquiry to Mike about his holding- sixes or aces, only 2 possible hands he could feasibly play in that fashion. Of course, I was concerned about the possiblilty of you having JJJ(especially after I got 3 bet on the turn) but I programmed myself to raise you the river (provided no ace came)anyway since I could beat 2 of the 3 hands.


You are absolutely right about me making occasional mistakes like 3 betting your early raises with medium pairs. But since I don't play this game professionally nor seriously (uhhh, maybe a little seriously), my game has many holes that need to be covered.


Anyway, I enjoy reading newsgroups but don't like to post due to my laziness. /images/biggrin.gif I just felt like rectifying a small minor detail since our 'fun' was openly disscussed in this cyber space with the potential audience of 6 billion peeps. LOL


I'll see you tomorrow on the boat, Mike

Hey buddy,


Still could swear I saw 666 as I remember thinking that it looked like I gave so much action to, and couldn't beat bottom set. But I'm sure that you're likely to remember with better clarity since you had no reason to be flustered. Anyway, well played('course I helped), don't know if I'm playing tomorrow, but I'll see you soon. Good luck tomorrow.


Mike