Proper play with TT in $10 SNG?

[JEM7VSBL]

I'm starting to get a few more SNG's under my belt lately, and here's a hand I had a quick question on. Here, it's the second level and I'm one of the big stacks. My opponent in this hand barely played any hands in the SNG.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t610)
Button (t1430)
SB (t1825)
BB (t1580)
JEM (t1595)
MP (t960)

Preflop: JEM is UTG with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="CC3333">JEM raises to t100</font>, MP folds, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">Button raises to t300</font>, SB folds, BB folds, JEM calls t200.

Flop: (t645) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
JEM checks, <font color="CC3333">Button bets t1130 (All-In)</font>, JEM calls t1130.

Turn: (t2905) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: (t2905) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t2905

Results in white below: <font color="white">
JEM shows Th Ts (three of a kind, tens).
Button shows As Ad (one pair, aces).
Outcome: JEM wins t2905. </font>


Now my question(s)...I am not too familiar with proper tournament strategy yet (still learning). Was my call correct preflop against another big stack? I had put him on either AA or KK based on his raise, so I didn't reraise him all in. I was going to wait to see what the flop was before risking all my chips, and I guess I got lucky this hand. Was this the correct action on this hand?

Thanks

[ligastar]

[ QUOTE ]
Now my question(s)...I am not too familiar with proper tournament strategy yet (still learning). Was my call correct preflop against another big stack? I had put him on either AA or KK based on his raise, so I didn't reraise him all in. I was going to wait to see what the flop was before risking all my chips, and I guess I got lucky this hand. Was this the correct action on this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you had him on AA or KK then why did you call his raise? If you are right you are dominated so why would you commit more chips to a dire situation?

[JEM7VSBL]

well, i would have folded to any post flop bet if i didn't make the set, so would the implied odds have made it correct to call the preflop raise?

[ligastar]

Throw the math out the window for a second. Your instincts told you that the other player had AA, KK...sounds like you had a read on this guy...and the read was that he had a monster...that he had a hand and wasn't on a steal or isolation move. A lot of NLHE is feel and you were dead on...its a good thing the flop brought you a huge pot but, although it is isn't easy, sometimes you have to laydown a 99 or TT I believe. But you are right, if you are going to call the raise and take the flop and overcards come then proceed w/ caution.

[ QUOTE ]
well, i would have folded to any post flop bet if i didn't make the set

[/ QUOTE ]

How would you have played a flop that was rag-rag-rag?

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
well, i would have folded to any post flop bet if i didn't make the set, so would the implied odds have made it correct to call the preflop raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not even close. You got lucky.

More importantly, you should learn how to figure the EV of the play for yourself. The EV of any situation is the probability of each outcome times the EV of that outcome, summed over all possible outcomes. Try it.

eastbay

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
Not even close. You got lucky.


[/ QUOTE ]

Eastbay

I think you need to have a rethink about this one, the guy only reraised 200 more, to make a 445 pot, I make it a -16 chips per hand play on average, as long as he bins it if he doesn't hit the flop, maybe it's worth taking out a guy who misplays the aces like this (just for fun) /images/graemlins/grin.gif!

Regards ML

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not even close. You got lucky.


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Eastbay

I think you need to have a rethink about this one, the guy only reraised 200 more, to make a 445 pot, I make it a -16 chips per hand play on average, as long as he bins it if he doesn't hit the flop, maybe it's worth taking out a guy who misplays the aces like this (just for fun) /images/graemlins/grin.gif!

Regards ML

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I missed the initial raise, which does make it closer, but still a losing play, even assuming you can take the guy's whole stack every single time, which is a little optimistic.

In any case the more important issue is that the guy knows how to figure it for himself, which you deleted.

eastbay

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
I missed the initial raise, which does make it closer, but still a losing play, even assuming you can take the guy's whole stack every single time, which is a little optimistic.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think you probably would most of the time at least.

[ QUOTE ]
In any case the more important issue is that the guy knows how to figure it for himself, which you deleted.


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't quite understand what you meant by this, would you clarify please.

Thanks in advance

Regards ML

[fnurt]

If you really put him on AA/KK - in other words, you have zero intention of putting any more money in unless you flop a set - you are risking an additional T200 to win the T490 in the pot plus his remaining stack of T1130. In other words you are getting 8-1 implied odds on the call.

The odds of flopping a set are 7.5-1, so it seems like a good call. However, there's two other factors you need to take into account: (1) you may flop a set and still lose, and (2) you may flop a set but not get his whole stack. In this case, if he has AA or KK I'd safely assume you win his whole stack, but you could be wrong about his hand. If he has AK and you flop a set he may be able to get away from it without losing everything.

For these reasons, a good rule of thumb is that you want 10-1 implied odds before calling preflop, if your plan is to either hit a set or fold. So I think you weren't quite getting the right odds here, but I don't think it was a terrible decision.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I missed the initial raise, which does make it closer, but still a losing play, even assuming you can take the guy's whole stack every single time, which is a little optimistic.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think you probably would most of the time at least.


[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the time. But some players could get away on a monochrome, straight, or paired board, especially if played aggressively on the flop.

This only makes it a bigger losing play. You shouldn't make losing plays in any case.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
In any case the more important issue is that the guy knows how to figure it for himself, which you deleted.


[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't quite understand what you meant by this, would you clarify please.

Thanks in advance

Regards ML

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant what it sounds like: more important than the results for this hand are that this guy learns how to calculate it for himself, so he doesn't have to post on the board every time he's not sure.

eastbay

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
I meant what it sounds like: more important than the results for this hand are that this guy learns how to calculate it for himself, so he doesn't have to post on the board every time he's not sure.


[/ QUOTE ]

My calculation on this

100 hands

hit set on flop 12% of the time
the other 88% you fold to a bet

pot is 445, button stack is 1130

11 times you win 1,575 (1,130+445)
1 times you lose 1,330 (200 call+1,130) because of set over set
88 times you lose 200

11x1,575=17,325 winnings
1,330+(88x200)= 18,930

18,930-17,325=1,605/100= -16.05 per hand

This was my workings which i feel are pretty close to what would happen, if I have a read on this guy i might well make this call in the same chip positions, it is slightly -EV but the guy deserved to be busted out for misplaying his aces. I'm pretty sure most $10+1 sng players cannot get away from AA so you should get it all in.

Regards ML

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I meant what it sounds like: more important than the results for this hand are that this guy learns how to calculate it for himself, so he doesn't have to post on the board every time he's not sure.


[/ QUOTE ]

My calculation on this

100 hands

hit set on flop 12% of the time
the other 88% you fold to a bet

pot is 445, button stack is 1130

11 times you win 1,575 (1,130+445)
1 times you lose 1,330 (200 call+1,130) because of set over set
88 times you lose 200

11x1,575=17,325 winnings
1,330+(88x200)= 18,930

18,930-17,325=1,605/100= -16.05 per hand

This was my workings which i feel are pretty close to what would happen, if I have a read on this guy i might well make this call in the same chip positions, it is slightly -EV but the guy deserved to be busted out for misplaying his aces. I'm pretty sure most $10+1 sng players cannot get away from AA so you should get it all in.

Regards ML

[/ QUOTE ]

I mostly like the calculation (thanks for working it out for the OP) although I think you should discount the implied odds for a scary flop.

But I definitely don't like the "well it's -EV but this guy's an ass so let's stick it to him." That's irrational emotional play.

eastbay

[BradleyT]

What's the OP? Open Public?

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
What's the OP? Open Public?

[/ QUOTE ]

Original poster.

eastbay

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
But I definitely don't like the "well it's -EV but this guy's an ass so let's stick it to him." That's irrational emotional play.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol I think you paraphrase me here, what i meant is he gives you a chance to make a marginal call, so i maybe take it, do you never make marginal calls man. Maybe we will get to sit at the same table one day, then you'll get to see I don't do irrational emotional.

Regards ML

PS I'm sure you would never misplay your aces this badly.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But I definitely don't like the "well it's -EV but this guy's an ass so let's stick it to him." That's irrational emotional play.

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lol I think you paraphrase me here, what i meant is he gives you a chance to make a marginal call, so i maybe take it,


[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Maybe there's a reason but I don't see it.

[ QUOTE ]

do you never make marginal calls man.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, I just didn't realize they were marginal when I made them. If I know it's -EV, I don't make the call.

[ QUOTE ]

Maybe we will get to sit at the same table one day, then you'll get to see I don't do irrational emotional.

Regards ML

PS I'm sure you would never misplay your aces this badly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno. I've been known to take some risks with AA when I feel I need it to get back in the hunt.

eastbay

[mackthefork]

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I've been known to take some risks with AA when I feel I need it to get back in the hunt

[/ QUOTE ]

I have too but this guy was in good shape and he dropped a bollock.

Regards ML

[aces_full]

[ QUOTE ]
If you really put him on AA/KK - in other words, you have zero intention of putting any more money in unless you flop a set - you are risking an additional T200 to win the T490 in the pot plus his remaining stack of T1130. In other words you are getting 8-1 implied odds on the call.

The odds of flopping a set are 7.5-1, so it seems like a good call. However, there's two other factors you need to take into account: (1) you may flop a set and still lose, and (2) you may flop a set but not get his whole stack. In this case, if he has AA or KK I'd safely assume you win his whole stack, but you could be wrong about his hand. If he has AK and you flop a set he may be able to get away from it without losing everything.

For these reasons, a good rule of thumb is that you want 10-1 implied odds before calling preflop, if your plan is to either hit a set or fold. So I think you weren't quite getting the right odds here, but I don't think it was a terrible decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

In NL, when I'm considering calling a raise (unless I hold AA or KK) I use the 10% rule. Don't call a raise for more than 10% of your stack, or your opponent's stack, whichever is smaller. That way you will always be getting at least 10:1 implied odds on your call.

I assume you are probably on the second level of the tournament. How was the pre flop action? If there was a lot of limping, I would probably just limp with the TT and call a reasonable raise if there was one behind me. By reasonable I mean 160 chips or less, 200 is borderline. At this point, especially in a $10 SNG I don't like open raising from UTG with TT. There's too many hands that would likely call you that could beat you on the flop. If you just stole the blinds, you only increase your stack size by 2.8%, and that's meaningless at this stage of the tournament. Until the blinds start to matter, as far as pairs, I'm only raising with AA,KK, and under certain circumstances QQ,JJ, and maybe TT-but with JJ and TT I want to be in mid-late position with it folded around to me. Under any other circumstances I'm limping with JJ and below from any position and hoping to see a cheap flop in the hopes of making a set.

[Beavis68]

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Not even close. You got lucky.


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Eastbay

I think you need to have a rethink about this one, the guy only reraised 200 more, to make a 445 pot, I make it a -16 chips per hand play on average, as long as he bins it if he doesn't hit the flop, maybe it's worth taking out a guy who misplays the aces like this (just for fun) /images/graemlins/grin.gif!

Regards ML

[/ QUOTE ]

How is making such a nice re-raise misplaying?

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
How is making such a nice re-raise misplaying?

[/ QUOTE ]

Take a read through the thread and you will see what i say, he needed to maybe go 200 more than he did, just to kill the TT call being a marginal call. I think he played the aces too soft and he deserved to get beat.

Regards ML

[JEM7VSBL]

Thanks for all the responses!

Anyway, after reviewing the hand several times and looking through all the responses, I think the general concensus was that I made a marginal call and got lucky...

Now switching gears for a second, my opponent's raise is probably the most significant point of discussion...did he make the right play here by raising slightly more than 20% of my stack? I would have easily folded if he reraised all-in, but then again, he probably wanted to draw me and the blinds into calling his raise and then going all-in on the flop. Was his raise too little, too much, or just right?