Passivity

As I struggle to move my game past the bet/raise or fold mentality, I find myself coming under a lot of criticism. Here's another hand.


I limped in UTG with AQo and it was raised by a good player in middle position. The bb called. 3-way.


The fop came A93r. The bb bet, I called, the pre-flop raiser called.


First, is there any way I can fold? I actually considered it, but this bb would bet any ace or a pair of sevens, pocket TT, etc. Should I have raised? What are the pros and cons?


The turn was a T completing the rainbow. The bb bet again, I called and the pre-flop raiser folded.


The river was a 5. The bb checked, I bet, and he called. (he had JJ). btw- the pre-flop raiser had QQ.


In discussing this hand with a friend, he felt I should have raised the flop. I tried to defend my calling, but he had several reasons for raising mostly having to do with image issues. He's a good player and his reasons made sense. But I still say that from a strict 'per hand' basis, calling will be immediately more profitable given the play of my two opponents. I make more when I'm ahead and lose less when beat. As always, I'd appreciate comments. Thanks.

I think you need to raise the flop a great majority of the time. The other 20% of the time, wait and raise on the turn, if he comes over the top you can consider folding. I don't know why you would think about folding on the flop (to me unthinkable here), but maybe that is why you play 20-40 and I am still struggling to beat the 10 games. JMHO, I think you are getting WAY to fancy here.


Jeff

Your post hammers home the subjective nature of "best." For me it would absolutely be best to raise on the flop. Lots of guys will reraise me or at least call with the QQ. But for you, it might not be. It really depends on how you (I) play the rest of the time.


That the pocket queens never made a move after the flop, and that the JJ checked the river even though you never raised during the hand, suggests to me that your call on the flop let them BOTH know that you very likely had an ace, and that your call on the turn nearly clinched it. In my opinion, this means you are mighty predictable. You might try throwing more curve balls. It doesn't take much jump to make them jumpy.


Tommy

Jeff-


I'm really not trying to get fancy. Just trying to make the most $$ like the rest of us. Again, what are some reasons for raising the flop other than a kneejerk reaction? If the bb has me beat with say 2-pair, a set, etc. do I still want to raise? What if the pre-flop raiser has me beat with AK, AA, or tied with AQ? Now should I prefer raising? If they do not have me beat then the pre-flop raiser likely doesn't have more than two outs. I don't think I'm being hindsightful here, since what can he have on an A93 flop that doesn't already have me beat or he is drawing very thin to? The bb may have 5 outs, but on the turn is there only 5 bets in the pot after he bets. If he has an ace, he is reduced to 3 outs assuming he doesn't already have me beat.


I still think I make more by calling. (btw- I may have raised the river had he bet again).

I don't think folding the flop is an option. Can you be more specific about why you think calling will make you more money when you're ahead than raising the flop or turn?


On another note, what do people think of the preflop raiser's flop call? With a bet and a call in front of me on an ace-high board with no draws, I don't think I would continue with my QQ.

Your hand is one that really can be played in so many different ways in a shorthanded pot which this one was.


I certainly have no problem with the way you played it. Just make sure that you vary your play i.e. next time, you may want to raise the turn particularly if you think that the bettor will call your raise (this gets you the same number of bets as if the guy to your left overcalled but does take away 2 bad river cards for you). Another reason to usually reaise on the turn is that you are not going to get an overcall from the guy to your left if he is holding KK/QQ so you may as well raise and try and colect the extra bet from the raiser.


Folding on the flop? What's up with that????

I think he felt those two queens in his hand looked pretty and he was going to show those guys with the aces a thing or two when he hit his set on the turn. Not very smart.

Since you are known to limp w/AQs, what does your competition think you raise with?

I don't think the way he plays this hand makes him predictable. He may or may not be. But this hand is not an indication. I think it makes him less predictable. How many people would play it that way. Not many. He actually looks less like an Ace by just calling rather than raising. Still looks like an ace, but not more becuase he just called. Any solid player that calls on the flop and turn with an ace board looks like an ace. If it was obvious, why did he get QQ to call on the flop, and get JJ's to pay him off on the river. And if he raised the flop I don't see QQ coming over the top. If he does he's stupid. Obviously one of the 2 players has an ace. Why put another chip in the pot with QQ.


Btw, I would have raised coming in. And had I limped, I would have raised the flop. The way Kevin plays it on the flop is interesting. Like he stated, original raiser either has him beat, tied, or is drawing to 2 outs. The reason I would still probbaly raise is if he does have 2 outs you give him a chance to hit and win a big pot off of you. As opposed to you getting only one sb the times he doesn't hit it. I think the fact that it is only a 3 handed pot its okay to play it this way occassionally to vary your play a bit. If there were more people in the pot you could not afford to let everybody else in cheap behind you.


One more thing. Mucking to the bet in front of you on the flop I would not even consider. Thats weak. The only hand he could have that beats you is AK. And he may have 3 bet that hand. Could be a set or 2 pair but not likely. Especially when people have the tendency to check to the raiser with big really big hands. His most likely hand is a worse ace where you have him right where you want him.

Dear Keven,

At middle limits playing your hands using the "classic" tecniques is usualy most profitable. There is a time for not raising with your ace King out of an early position pre-flop. But that time is when you are playing in such a loose game that you can't isolate your hand and then you would delay your raise to a post flop check raise to thin the field. But the calling patterns of this game apear to be typical of a relatively tight mid level game. So what would the classic tecnique be. Raise preflop, then typicaly the queens would put in a second raise, and most likely the jacks would just call. (this would put 9half bets in the pot). When your ace scattered rainbow hit on the flop a raise behind you the classic move out of your early position would be to check then the Queens would have come out betting and you would then put in your check raise the,queens with 13 bets in the pot and the possibility of a bluff or semi bluff would probably call and there is a good chance the jacks would now call to see the turn card putting the 15th half bet in the pot. I and quite a few of the most respected names in the game feel that not protecting your big pair on the flop is the biggest mistake in holdem. When a brick hits on the turn comming out betting would probably win you the pot. If it doesn't and the Queens calls to the river you get an extra 8 half bets If the jacks calls to the river which would be a major mistake (but you see this all the time) you would take another 12 half bets for a total of 12 and one half major bets. Remember you started with aces on the flop and the probability that an opponent is going to flop a hand of 2 pair or better is over 20 to 1.The key to winning poker is beting and raising when you have the mathematical probability of having the best hand.If you get raised or checked raise that is the time to reevaluate your action.As was pointed out if you dont raise with big or little slick what will you raise with (Aces and Kings) once your opponents figure that out the only time you will get callers is when your beaten pre flop. Ie an opponent with Aces knowing you only raise with Aces and Kings will call you with Aces and then raise your kings on the turn or river.In summery in an attempt to maximize your profit you actualy decreased it and also put your big pair at risk that an opponent would out draw you. Thank you for raising this question.

"Good luck,favors the prepared mind" Most sincerely,


Doc AZ

My type writer is on the bum and for some reason I can't edit this post I am sorry for several spelling and gramatical errors.

I'm with skp on everything.


Why would you want to fold the flop? Even if the raiser uses a ridiculously tight preflop raising standard of AA-QQ AK AQs for this situation (middle position against 1 tight UTG limper), you are still winning or chopping more than half the time. If I were your opponent and knew you limped UTG with hands like AQ (meaning I can usually put you on medium pair, AQ, AJs, KQs when you limp UTG), I would raise you preflop with many more hands than that, since your narrow range of UTG limping hands makes it easy for me to use my postion to cheaply figure out when I am beat on the flop, but it becomes very difficult for you to figure out when you are losing. All of which is just a roundabout way of saying that you should have most of the hands your opponent raised you preflop with beat, and since you say the BB might bet anything here, there is very little reason to think he is beating you either.


If your range of preflop limping hands is as narrow as I guessed, I think you also want to start occassionally (maybe 25-33% of the time) raising with the hands you limp with, as well as limping/raising maybe 20-25% of the time you get a decent suited connector (JT-54) or small pair that you otherwise would have mucked. However, I would only bother with this if there are tough players behind you who would try to isolate you with a raise, and then use their knowledge of your starting hand and their position to outplay you with many weaker hands than yours. You just don't want to become a target for observant opponents when your preflop play is too predictable; it's a horrible situation when a player will play against you differently than anyone else, as it can take you a long time (and many bets) to figure out what is happeneing.


Just checking: you would have raised on the flop if you were against more opponents, right? I think your call here would be a big mistake against 4 or more opponents in a pot that was raised preflop, especially since the bet came from the perfect spot, just to your right.

I haven't read the other posts so I may repeat what someone else has already said.


It seems to me this hand is fairly well played. That's because the original bettor should realize that the before the flop raiser will probably bet given the board if it is checked to him. Thus when he bets out it appears that something may be out of line. It may be that he has a great hand and is looking for three bets or another possibility is that his hand is weaker than aces and he is trying to decide if he should get off it. So by calling you may trap him if your hand is better or save a little money if you are second best.


If your top pair was below aces then a raise by you would make more sense since you do not want to give a cheap card to the player behind you. Also, if the player behind you happens to have a better hand like AK or AA, then that's just the breaks.


In HPFAP-21 we have a chapter called "Waiting to Raise" (page 147) that is similar (but not exactly the same) to this situation. You may want to look at it.


Finally, I believe your friend's comments on image are silly. When your opponents learn that your calls can also be very dangerous, they will fear you even more, and that has to be very good for your image. There is no way you can fold on the flop and you should usually raise preflop when first in with AQo.


Best wishes,

Mason

Of course I couldn't and would never fold the flop. What I should've said is that for the briefest moment I WANTED to fold. Would anyone concede that the bb's bet seemed a little strange? I thought with most legitimate hands, he'd go for a check/raise. So I thought he either had little, or a hand with which he was looking to make it 3 bets and maybe trap me in the middle. I'm not quite THAT weak/tight, but I appreciate everyone's concern /images/smile.gif


On a side note: What if I held AJ, ATs, or A8s and there were a couple more players in the hand? Would anyone agree now that this might be a tough spot?

I'll also raise with AQo many times as well. One reason I sometimes limp with this hand is to create the very question you just asked.

Thanks for your thoughts Pokerguy. I agree with your comments. As for folding on the flop, see my comments below. I wonder how your opinion on this changes with hands like ATs with more players. Thanks again.

In this case it's rather obvious how it made me more $$. JJ and QQ both likely fold for a single raise on the flop, and JJ certainly doesn't pay me off on the end. But I think what's maybe just as important, is that I lose LESS when I'm beat.

Actually, I was going to raise the river had my opponent bet again. I sometimes prefer this raise to one on the turn. I find it has the advantage of still collecting the 3rd bet while avoiding the loss of 4, since people are usually less inclined to re-raise the river with hands like two-pair, etc. But I agree raising the turn should be done often as well.


As for folding on the flop, please see my comments below. I'd also like to get your opinion on how/if your view would change if intead of AQ, I held AJ or ATs with a couple of more players in the pot. Thanks skp.

Doc Az-


Thank you for the very well thought out post. As I already pointed out, I will often raise with AQ. However, I do not feel this is a "must" raise hand depending on the game. Although most 10-20 and 20-40 games in my area are normally quite good, you can sometimes find yourself in a pretty tight and/or tough lineup. I feel I mix up my pre-flop play enough to where I avoid becoming predictable. But I will keep all of your comments in mind. Thanks.

I think it's interesting how many people seem to ALWAYS raise with AQ up front. I will raise with this hand many times, but I don't see a big problem with sometimes limping (depending on the texture of the game). I agree with many of your comments about the problems you might face when an observant opponent starts raising behind you. But do you agree that this is slightly off-set by the fact that many times I can often gain extra when an ace or queen flops? The types of games where I'll sometimes limp w/AQ, are also games where I'll sometimes raise with hands like 88, JTs or even 98s every now and then (not too often), since there's a reasonable chance my raise will be respected enough to pick up the blinds and if not, gives me many bluffing opportunities later in the hand while adding a little spice to my pre-flop game.


I agree with your comments and very much appreciate the advice. I will think about it further. And yes. I would've raised the flop had the pot not been short-handed. Thanks Coilean.

In an unraised pot, you would probably want to raise on the flop with your AJ/At. In a pot that was raised, you might want to just call (see how the preflop raiser to your left reacts) and then generally lower the boom on the turn if the bet comes from your right again i.e. because raising on the flop will not chase out 5 outers.


Notice that when the flop bet comes from your right when the preflop raiser is to your immediate left in a multiway pot, the flop bettor probably will not have a big ace/set etc for if he did, he would surely be tempted to let the preflop raiser bet and get a couple of callers so that he can checkraise.


These are generalities of course...much depends on the texture of the flop, the mood of the game etc.

Kevin,


I would not play these hands in early position. Thats why you find yourself in a tough spot. AJs I would play, the rest would be a muck. A10s in the a soft non-aggressive game maybe. Had I been in this situation I would raise to protect my hand for the times it is good. You can always slow down later if you not sure about your kicker. Calling would be the worst play. If you think your beat, muck. Otherwise you must raise to protect your hand. You are in the perfect spot to put pressure on the feild by raising. There are no player in between you so there is a decent chance to get it down to you and him. Maybe one other opponent.

"Since you are known to limp w/AQs, what does your competition think you raise with?"


We've got a mix up here. Now way I'd limp with that hand.