How much to raise

[TylerD]

$27 NLHE "Turbo" SnG on Stars.

How much should I raise and why?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t2925)
BB (t3330)
UTG (t1095)
MP (t1795)
Hero (t2775)
Button (t1580)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, MP raises to t300

[Sam T.]

I started to respond, but realized I have no idea, but I do have a question: What is your goal here?

With JJ, I do NOT want to see a flop (for the obvious reason that if overcards come, you may be in trouble) so my goal is to get him to fold. What bet does this?

[fnurt]

From reading a great many posts on this forum, I have come to the conclusion that the "standard" 2+2 raise can be calculated by taking whatever the poster actually raised (and presumably lost with, or there wouldn't be a post), and adding 1.5-2 BB. The logic being, if only you had raised more to get out the trash, you wouldn't be here posting today!

Since we don't know what you raised, I'm afraid I can't help you with that calculation. I will try to look at things slightly more seriously though.

There is a school of thought that says a mini-raise often signals AA and should be feared. While I don't know about that, I certainly feel like you don't know whether you're ahead yet. If you push here, it seems very unlikely that you'll be called with anything worse than a coinflip, and meanwhile you're risking your stack just in hopes of making T500. So I think pushing is too much.

There's something to be said for calling and *gasp* playing poker after you've seen the flop. The problem is that you'd rather not have hands like KQ, or for that matter KT, come in from the blinds.

Upon reflection, I think I would make a mini-raise of my own to T600. While this raise won't get the original raiser to lay his hand down, as far as the button and blinds are concerned, the two mini-raises add up to a real raise. You're not going to see them come in with less than a real hand.

If the original raiser comes over the top, I'd fold. I could live with that result but I probably couldn't live with putting T900 in the pot and then folding. I think you can't make any raise that's big enough to scare the original raiser without pot committing yourself, so I wouldn't try. I'd just raise enough to isolate and then play from there.

I realize the idea of raising less than all-in is unorthodox in the internet age, but sometimes it's fun to be a rebel. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[slogger]

Interesting spot. First of all, it'd be nice to know what your read of MP is at this stage (were mini-raises typical from him or from the field in general? what raised hands, if any, has this guy shown down?) I suspect many will hate my play, but barring a good read, I'd reraise to somwhere between 700 and 800, with the intention of folding to an all-in from MP.

I think making it 500 more to MP (who has about 1450 left after his raise) effectively forces MP to make a decision for all his chips at the smallest cost to you, while also scaring out AJ and KQ-type hands on the button and in the blinds. It allows you to either outplay MP after the flop or escape if you read him for a big hand once the flop is down (assuming overcards). The situation I fear is a call and then an all-in from MP on a raggedy flop. But I think you'd have to call this bet unless something changed your mind (because it would be highly unusual for the player you describe to just call with QQ, KK or AA after a reraise like the one I suggest).

[Girazze]

Here's my thoughts. The SB and BB are your main concerns at this point. Calling the T300 will most likely invite SB and BB to play along, giving you more folks to beat your semi-strong hand with any Q, K or A pairing them up. Your raise will have to be big enough to have them fold. You don't want them playing this hand. With JJ, I would prefer to keep it between me and MP. I would raise it to T1000, thus coming across to the others that you have a strong hand and it would be in their best interest to fold if they didn't have a strong hand as well. If they do, then they do. You still have plenty of chips to weather a fold if you get a all-in reraise. You don't want a showdown with JJ so seeing the flop with as few as possible would be in my best interest. I don't see MP having a PP higher than JJ so calling an all-in from him would be easy for me. I read him as having KQ, KJ, AQ, AJ or a medium pair. Any other player going all-in would lead me to fold since they have already seen two raises before their all-in.

Scenario would be.....raise to T1000, watch Button, SB, and BB fold. MP will either fold or go all-in. You either take the pot then and there or see a showdown with your JJ ahead at the start and hopefully at the finish.

[TylerD]

I went all-in just because I didn't like the situation at all. I can definately see an argument for raising to 1000 and playing from there, but I really didn't want to see an A or K on the flop therefore I wanted to avoid seeing a flop!

[hhboy77]

In general, reraising with jj is very read dependent. However, that is at a full table with small blinds. If the player is a rock and is raising with two overcards at the least or he's been making a standard raise and now suddenly it's changed, then I would save my chips for another situation.

However, in this situation without any of the aforementioned factors, I think this is a clear push. A reraise to 1000 would put him more than 50% all in. You can't then fold for the last 800 even if he had aa, as your pot odds would now be nearly 4-1.

If you're fairly sure that he has overcards, I suppose an argument for a call could be made. The min-reraise might make sense here too if you have an overcard read, but it does tie you to the pot a bit more and there's virtually no chance he's laying down aq, ak for another 300.

[soxfan70]

I like a raise to $1200, to take it down now. UTG likeley has a smaller PP or a big A.

[soxfan70]

I read your reply after i posted mine. A couple questions for you:
1)Aren't you setting yourself up for the infamous 2+2 Stop & Go?
2)What do you do post flop if 3 undercards hit and he pushes?
3) what about with an overcard and a push?

I like your opinions in other posts, that's why I ask.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

If you're going to raise, it has to be all-in, since making it 1000 to go pretty much commits him to pushing in if he's going to play on. So if he's any kind of player, 1000 isn't going to get him to call with any weaker hand.

You have enough chips to just call here and see what the flop brings. If he bets into you when an overcard flops you get away cheap. If no overcard flops and he checks, you have to decide whether his minraise was AA or something weaker and play accordingly.

[meeeee]

700

Not a big chunk out of your stack and you make the original raiser think twice about what he is raising with. Also, you get a better idea as to his holding. He most likely wont call with Axs, whereas he may make that raise with it.

[fnurt]

I think he has too much left in his stack for a real stop & go, although if he wants to play that way, good luck to him.

The stop & go is very easy to detect once you're attuned to it, as every reader of this forum surely is. If the flop is undercards, I call easily, and I probably call if the flop comes K high or Q high. On an ace, yeah, you could get me to lay it down, but anyone who makes a habit of bluffing all-in at A high flops is going to have problems of their own.

I don't have a problem with the people who wanted to reraise all-in or close to it, but this might be one of those situations where you only get called if you're beaten.

[Jason Strasser]

TylerD,

First of all, you can not stop and go here. It is physically impossible. By (I thought) the 2+2 (Fossilman) definition of this move, you need to be first to act on the flop. If you are not first to act on the flop, you can't do the stop and go. So I'm not sure why people are suggesting it.

I have two moves here: All in or call. If my opponent is tight, and I haven't seen him make raises like this very often, I call and play the flop tentatively. If my opponent is the loose type, I push all in. In this spot, I prefer calling most of the time, especially because the raise came from someone in relatively early position. If this was a button raise and I was the SB, this is insta-all in (maybe thats a flaw in my game).

I'm not sure if all-in or call is the best move EV wise. You aren't likely going to get any hand better than you to fold--but then again, it is very, very possible your opponent doesn't have a better hand then you. I would choose the lower variance rout of calling and seeing the flop. Your stack is deep enough where this is not a problem.

Then again, I really don't see anything wrong with all-in over the top. Just remember, you can not raise anything less. I am also not a fan of the min raise (or one of its close relatives), as I don't see what exactly it accomplishes.

[TylerD]

As I said I raised all-in, as everyone was folding I wondered had I made a mistake, had the EP min-raised with Aces (a bad play from EP IMO), but sure enough he folded and I was happy.

I had acquired a reasonable pot and given myself more than enough chips to make a money finish.

The only problem I see with the play is that if someone yet to act has AA, KK or QQ I'm done for, but that is a chance I'm willing to take if I can get AQ, KQ and even AT to fold, I might even get a call from TT which is good as well.

[meeeee]

I put him on a mediocre hand. Like one big card one average card suited.

I think that he would still fold all but a really powerful hand with a 700 raise. Don't like the all-in raise with 3 people left to act behind you. Just asking for trouble.

I like the decent raise then see what the flop because you still have 2000T to deal with. Going all-in and having 2 huge stacks to act after you...not a great play. Not a bad play, but I don't think that it is a great play.