Kobe versus Jordan

[J_V]

I was just listening to the Dan Patrick show on ESPN radio, and he suggested that Kobe is better at 25 than Jordan was at 25. I believe that this to be true - and hardly debatable.

I personally think that Kobe at 25 is more physically talented than Jordan at any point in his career.

He is taller.

He jumps higher.

He goes to the basket as well as Jordan ever did.

He has the turn around jumper Jordan didn't have till he was 29-30 and not nearly as quick.

He has better 3-point range.

He is a marginally better free throw shooter.


If I was a scout, I think Kobe's specs match up favorable versus Michael Jordan in his prime.


While Michael Jordan is arguably the toughest mental competitor in the history of sports, Kobe is not exactly mind-putty. If Kobe can ever reach Jordan's mental plane, he may be considered the greatest ever one day (after he wins a few championships w/out Shaq).

Comments?

[M2d]

[ QUOTE ]
While Michael Jordan is arguably the toughest mental competitor in the history of sports, Kobe is not exactly mind-putty.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kobe, however, seems to take quite a few trips to mental never-never land. at the beginning of his career, MJ was a ball hog, but it partially came from not having any supporting cast and no system to rely on. Kobe has Shaq and Phil, but seems to often want to do it all himself. sometimes to amazing results, but often to his and his team's detriment.

[Boris]

I don't know how you can even begin to compare Kobe with Jordan. So Kobe has as much or more physical talent than Jordan. So what? Lot's of guys had more physical talent than Jordan. How about Dominique Wilkins in his prime? Or even Tracy McGrady?

Jordan not only was a better athlete, he was a better team player and he was more valuable to his team. The Laker's will still be a force next year if they get rid of Kobe. They can give Shaq a better supporting cast and maybe force him to get in shape and they will contend for the NBA title again. You can't say the same for Kobe. Even if he ends up with the Knicks, they will still not compete for the eastern division championship.

[J_V]

Didn't Jordan spend have his career trying to do all himself. The 63 against the Celtics is one of the better examples. Jordan put up 50 and lost in the playoffs on a seemingly regular basis. It was not until he started to distribute the ball that he won championships.


I don't think that in entirely a function of how talented his supporting cast was either.

[Boris]

Well if Kobe can put up 63 points in a play-off game now would be the time to do it. I'm sure the Lakers would win any game against the Pistons where Kobe had plus 40.

[Easy E]

as in, it had better be on 19-20 shooting (40) or The Diesel might put a size-gargantuan up his yahoo.

[J_V]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know how you can even begin to compare Kobe with Jordan

[/ QUOTE ]

A better question is how can you NOT. Rings, talent, physical similarites....


Dominique Wilkins was not a more talented basketball player than Michael Jordan. Tracy McGrady is close, but I'd say no again.

[ QUOTE ]
Jordan not only was a better athlete

[/ QUOTE ]

This is bogus. You have to refute my point that Kobe does everything a little better than Jordan did it in his prime. The only reason Jordan was a better team player than Kobe was because he was on a team where he was the man. Just wait till Kobe gets the ball in his hands ever possession w/out Goliath clogging the middle. He'll be putting up many more assists than Jordan's paltry career average.

If Kobe goes anywhere in the East, they will compete for the title, even the Knicks.

The current Lakers w/out Kobe would be flat out awful.

[Josh W]

It amazes me how otherwise intelligent people can be so ignorant regarding the mental aspect of the game.

Forget 'mental toughness' for now. Kobe is a bad decision maker. The classic case was last year, when they were playing the Magic (yeah, I know, it was last year, but still a pertinent example, as he still shows these tendencies)...

T-Mac posterizes Kobe on a baseline spin/dunk move. Kobe quickly grabs the inbound pass, pushes a 1-on-4, and as Brian Shaw said later (I'm paraphrasing) "As soon as Kobe took the inbound pass, we all knew he was about to do something stupid". He pushed the 1-on-4, and either turned it over or forced a stupid shot with no rebounding help, essentially turning it over.

Kobe needs to be better than T-Mac before he can start seriously being compared to Jordan. He is less athletic, a worse decision maker, and less coachable than T-Mac. And you wanna compare him to Jordan??

Josh

[bosoxfan]

I don't follow the NBA as closely as i used to but i'll give my opinion anyway. The thing that made Jordan so great was, I know it's a cliche, he made the players around him better. He was the ultimate team leader and had the respect of his teammates. When he spoke the team listened. I don't see the same qualities it Kobe. Not to say he won't develope them I just don't think he's there right now.

[adios]

Jordan turned 29 in during the 1989 season. Here's a link to his career stats:

Jordon Career Stats (http://www.rawbw.com/~deano/articles/magicbird/mjbase.htm)

Here's a link to Kobe's career stats:

Kobe's Career Stats (http://cbs.sportsline.com/u/basketball/nba/players/6496.htm)


As I like to say the record's speak for themselves /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

I realize that Jordan had college years under his belt but slice it and dice anyway you want Jordan's stats indicate that he was a better player than Kobe at the same age, at both ends of the court.

[Boris]

[ QUOTE ]
This is bogus. You have to refute my point that Kobe does everything a little better than Jordan did it in his prime.

[/ QUOTE ]

How could I possibly refute any of the items you listed? Height and jumping ability are a matter of fact. Maybe Kobe is a better 3 point shooter than Jordan but the 3 point shot is/was not a big part of either players' game. The other items you listed are a matter of opinion. My opinion is that Jordan in his younger days could drive to the basket better than Kobe. You disagree. I also think that Jordan's bread and butter shot, the fade-away jumper, was better than anything Kobe has to offer. But I think the most telling test was that fact that Kobe didn't show up in game 4 against the Pistons. As far as I can recall Jordan ALWAYS showed up in the crucial championship games.

[Boris]

I didn't realize Jordan was that much better. Makes it more ridiculous to compare Kobe to Jordan.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Jordan's defense puts him well ahead.

[Slacker13]

I am a heavy sports gambler and I can say for certain that in a clutch situation I would much rather have the ball in MJ's hands than KB's. Kobe is a great player, but I am not sure that he is the clutch player Jordan was (would like to see some stats)and I don't think anyone will ever have the heart Jordan had.

[J_V]

Agreed.

[J_V]

Let's not forget to look at the minutes disparity when it comes to blocks and steals (and anything else not PPG for that matter).

Also, if you are gonna include Kobe's pee-wee days, include Jordan's grandpa years as well.

[Boris]

That's a good point. Looks like Jordan was also a better conditioned athlete. He must have worked alot harder than Kobe.

[J_V]

Yes because it's a free for all in the NBA and players come in and out as they please. Or maybe Derek Fischer didn't hear Kobe yelling "Anyone need a blow?" from the sideline.

[Sincere]

[ QUOTE ]
(after he wins a few championships w/out Shaq).


[/ QUOTE ]

That will never happen. If it wasnt for Shaq, Kobe wouldnt even have 1 ring and we wouldnt be discussing this. Kobe Bryants career is a mirage. Jordan was the undisputed leader on his team and won 6 championships by putting that team on his back. Kobe doesnt have the ability to do that and won his rings by riding Shaq's back. Look at the Lakers record when they play without Shaq. Bryants career is a mirage and if it werent for Shaq we would be able to evaluate his ability more clearly. This is true though, Kobe isnt even the best player on his own team, how can he be compared to the best player of all time? Remeber Jordan led his team. Think about Kobe without playing with Shaq and ask yourself the same question about who is better at 25 and you have to laugh.

[Sincere]

The stats speak for themselves, but whatelse makes the comparison even more rediculous than it already is, is the fact that at 25 MJ didnt have Phil Jackson or Shaq.

[Sincere]

[ QUOTE ]
A better question is how can you NOT.

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I've said for years that Kobe is nothing more than a remake of Penny Hardaway. Yes, he's better but you get my point. People started up these rediculous arguments and claims about how great Penny was and how he compared to Jordan and that he was the next Jordan back in the day. But look where Penny's career went after he was separated from the Diesel.

Put Kobe on those 6 Bulls championship teams in Jordans place, how many rings would they win? None, the teams that those bulls beat in the finals were all monsters compared to the cream puffs Kobe's lakers beat for their 3 rings. Put, Jordan at 25 on the 3 Lakers championship teams and how many would they have won. I'd say all 3. Kobe's lack of heart against the Pistons this year shows you that he is no where near MJ.

[Sincere]

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As far as I can recall Jordan ALWAYS showed up in the crucial championship games.

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How great was that flu game. Now that is heart.

[J_V]

Your arguments aren't really that strong, but I'll comment on one thing, the fact that Kobe has Shaq hurts his "stats," since you guys seem to be most interested in PPG and RPG.

I'm not the only one saying this by the way, so laugh all you want. SAVE KOBE!!

[J_V]

[ QUOTE ]
T-Mac posterizes Kobe on a baseline spin/dunk move. Kobe quickly grabs the inbound pass, pushes a 1-on-4, and as Brian Shaw said later (I'm paraphrasing) "As soon as Kobe took the inbound pass, we all knew he was about to do something stupid". He pushed the 1-on-4, and either turned it over or forced a stupid shot with no rebounding help, essentially turning it over.


[/ QUOTE ]


What made Jordan so great was that he never took a bad shot. I could look through years of footage and not find one. All of his 10,000+ career shots were in the rhthym of the offense w/ rebounders crashing. Jordan never liked to go 1 on 4, hence we really have no spectacular highlights of him. Too bad.

[Boris]

jv u r pissing in the wind on this one. show me all the stat categories where Kobe has better numbers than Jordan.

[J_V]

When did I say Kobe was a better player or had better stats? I think I emphasized my point like ten times. But, I knew the MJ fans would still miss the point as they are too busy waiting in line to see his 10 inch dong.

Kobe has more talent than Michael Jordan.

I heard somewhere that someone suggested Kobe had smaller hands. Other than that, the case seems fairly cut and dry. We disagree on who has a better turnaround and is quicker. So be it.

But, we all know talentand success aren't linear.

Oh yeah, btw, Kobe won the ESPN "better at 25" poll. So, as long as there's safety in numbers, I'm not the one pissing in the wind.

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
When did I say Kobe was a better player or had better stats? I think I emphasized my point like ten times. But, I knew the MJ fans would still miss the point as they are too busy waiting in line to see his 10 inch dong.

Kobe has more talent than Michael Jordan.

I heard somewhere that someone suggested Kobe had smaller hands. Other than that, the case seems fairly cut and dry. We disagree on who has a better turnaround and is quicker. So be it.

But, we all know talentand success aren't linear.

Oh yeah, btw, Kobe won the ESPN "better at 25" poll. So, as long as there's safety in numbers, I'm not the one pissing in the wind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kobe still can't play defense like MJ did. Kobe doesn't lock down the other team's best guard and put up 30 a night. Kobe still has a lot of upside, but the way the game is currently played I don't think we'll be able to compare them as easily as we'd like. And the public, well, they're all fed the Kobe is better BS all day and poll as such. I believe MJ could have won a title without Phil, but the fact that Kobe and Shaq aren't with Phil speaks volumes to me. To each his own, though.

[adios]

[ QUOTE ]
But, I knew the MJ fans would still miss the point as they are too busy waiting in line to see his 10 inch dong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I'm pretty much an "un fan" of Jordon. I don't care for him at all really but I give him his due of course as a player.

[ QUOTE ]
Kobe has more talent than Michael Jordan.

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An objective measure of talent IS performance. If there is no objective mearsure used to evaluate talent it's all subjective and pointless.

The NFL regularly measures all kinds of performance such as vertical leap, 40 yard dash times, strength tests etc. of prospective new players. All of this "data" is used to evaluate "potential" i.e. "talent" and I think it's fair to say that the correlation between the best football players and the best talent as measured by these tests is weak. True a slow poke who runs an abysmal 40 yard dash time can't play. But a wide receiver who runs a 4.3 in the 40 yard dash is generally perceived to have more talent than a wide receiver who runs a 4.6. However, there's no proof that this actually true based on performance in the league.

Getting back to basketball, people are drafted in the NBA basically based on how their potential i.e. talent is perceived to be. Generally speaking I think the record isn't all that great for predicting future performance.

Arguing that Kobe does something better than Jordan seems very subjective without backing it up with some sort of objective measurement. Also there's the relative importance of a skill. Say Jordan was better (just pulling something out of thin air) at making half court shots, how important is that skill? Another example, say Kobe (just pulling something out of thin air) is one of the best ball handlers of all time, being more talented than Jordan could ever be. So what? Jordan's dribbling ability was plenty good.

Sorry the "talent" arguement IMO is a bogus arguement since the only way to objectively view "talent" or "potential" is how it is realized, in the case of basketball, on the court.

[ QUOTE ]
I heard somewhere that someone suggested Kobe had smaller hands. Other than that, the case seems fairly cut and dry. We disagree on who has a better turnaround and is quicker. So be it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Subjective, unprovable, therefore pointless.

[ QUOTE ]
Oh yeah, btw, Kobe won the ESPN "better at 25" poll. So, as long as there's safety in numbers, I'm not the one pissing in the wind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not seeing the question and not seeing who voted I don't think you're off the hook. If it was a fan poll I don't put much stock in it.

[scotnt73]

kobe is a great player but jordan will ALWAYS be the yard stick that great players are measured against. anyone who disagrees just wasnt there. i see alot of kids saying kobe is the greatest. and im glad they have a hero. but i dont know many guys my age(31) who watch basketball that think kobe even comes close. when they start saying that someone is the next kobe bryant of whatever ill give him more props but you will NEVER hear that.

[Josh W]

[ QUOTE ]


What made Jordan so great was that he never took a bad shot. I could look through years of footage and not find one. All of his 10,000+ career shots were in the rhthym of the offense w/ rebounders crashing. Jordan never liked to go 1 on 4, hence we really have no spectacular highlights of him. Too bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

(for the benefit of those who may be clueless otherwise, I believe JVs post is in jest...my following post works on this assumption).

JV, you are missing two huge points. First off, having been a fan for years (not uber diligent fan, mind you, but more of a highlight watcher), I have NOT seen MJ going 1-on-4 the length of the court. Yeah, he drives against four lakers and dances in the air. Yeah, he spins baseline against on Knick defender just to meet and greet Ewing at the rim.

But that's different than pushing it the length of the court.

Secondly, and more importantly, the problem with Kobe's actions mentioned in my post aren't so much THAT he did it...but that, as soon as TMac did his thing, KOBE'S TEAMMATES KNEW that Kobe was gonna do something stupid. Cuz it's Kobe, and that's what he does.

I'm not comparing one bad shot with another. I'm comparing the familiarity with stupidity that Kobe possesses. Do you think that MJs teammates ever said "oh man, Jordan is gonna go be a moron here and cost us a possession" long before it happened? I doubt it.

Josh

[Sincere]

Shaq may hurt his stats, However, people arent trying to compare Kobe to Jordan based on stats, because Jordans stats blow Kobe away. People are making the comparison because Kobe has 3 rings at such a young age, but Shaq also makes Kobe's rings a mirage.

Also, I think on ESPN they were debating this same topic last week and one Journalist stated that Kobe averages more shots per game than Jordan. Dont know if thats true, I'd have to take a look at the stats, but if it is, then the 'Shaq takes away from Kobe's stats argument' is false.

[Sincere]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh yeah, btw, Kobe won the ESPN "better at 25" poll.

[/ QUOTE ]

The poll I heard them discuss had over 80% claiming they'd rather have Jordan at 25 than Kobe. Dont know if there were two separate polls taken, but I specifically remember them saying on Sportscenter that over 80% prefered Jordan at 25.

[Easy E]

let's see what Kobe does in his new home

[Sincere]

[ QUOTE ]
He jumps higher.

He goes to the basket as well as Jordan ever did.


[/ QUOTE ]

You may be the only person in the world who beleives that.

The only people I ever saw who were as explosive Jumpers as Jordan where Dom. Wilkens, V. Carter, and Dr. J.

Jordan drove to the basket more ferocious and violently than anyone I've ever seen. Kobe goes to the basket pretty weak and has no where near the first step and explosiveness of MJ, IMO.

I love this thread.

[Sincere]

[ QUOTE ]
He has better 3-point range.

He is a marginally better free throw shooter.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jordans career 3pt% up to 1998 from the link provided above is : 33.2%

Kobe's career 3pt%: 33.1%

Jordans Free Throw% same link: 83.8%

Kobes Career FT%: 83.4%

Jordans Field Goal %: 50.5%

Kobes FG%: 45.4%

[Six_of_One]

[ QUOTE ]
Jordans Field Goal %: 50.5%

Kobes FG%: 45.4%

[/ QUOTE ]

Comparing FG% is not meaningful, because the game has changed too much. I'm not saying Kobe is better than (or as good as) Jordan at the same age, but the difference in FG% means nothing.

[B-Man]

Physical talent isn't everything--see Larry Bird (his physical talent was very underrated, but he still was not in the same league as Jordan, Magic, Wilt, Russell, Kareem and all of the other top players in history when it comes to natural ability).

Kobe may or may not be as physically talented as Jordan, but he definitely is not as great a player, and it is highly unlikely he ever will be.

[M2d]

What do you mean by "physical talent"? I don't think Magic belongs anywhere near the class of wilt and jordan. In fact, I think his physical gifts were more along the line of Larry's. Their main physical asset was the ability to see the whole court. The mental side of this (the ability to process this info and then make the correct decision at the drop of a dime) wasn't bad, either.

Both guys were great rebounders because they played position over ability. Both were great passers because of vision, and both were clutch shooters. neither were going to wow you with their ability to shatter backboards (except with Magic's jumpshot the first few years).

[J_V]

If I cared enough, I could prove this somehow, but I'm too lazy right now. Jordan was contrary to popular belief not one of the top five verticals in the NBA. Neither is Kobe, although he is closer.

[M2d]

When he was playing, I'd guess: Spud, Rex Chapman, Nique, Dee Brown, ........Wayman Tisdale? was I right on any of these? who'd I miss?

[Sincere]

I wasnt talking exactly about vertical leap. I was talking about explosiveness. Jordan exploded to the basket. JV, if your not lazier than I am right now, why dont you try to look up a stat: who had more dunks/per/game/career wise? That would be interesting. I still think Jordan exploded more violently to the rack. But whatever.

Explosiveness is a lot differnent that Vertical leap. My high school team, which I was on, made it to the state championship game. Vertical leap really doesnt mean that much. On that team, we had a dude who had a 49 inch vertical leap, now he is in prison.