The completely wrong attitude

[fnord_too]

I heard something at a 5/10 6 max table yesterday that bears repeating. The player in question said:

"I don't mind being out played, but I can't stand being out lucked"

That is exactly opposite of how I feel. If I am being outplayed, I am exercizing poor game selection and playing my cards sub optimally, both of which are things I have control over. I have no control whatever over luck, so I don't let that get to me. Moreover, as many have observed, without the luck factor poker games would completely dry up.

I would love to see the results from the following survey of poker players (not 2+2'ers really, since this forum does not, imo, represent a good cross section of the poker playing comunity; rather it reflects the part of the comunity that takes an active interest in learning and improving.) The question is this:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Pick the statement you agree most with:

"I don't mind being out played, but I can't stand being out lucked"

"I don't mind being out lucked, but I can't stand being out played"
</pre><hr />

[1800GAMBLER]

I agree with you. My attitude is the same. When i was moving up NL stakes i always tried to avoid playing short handed since i had little experience with it then, anyhow one day i sat at the $1k NL which i was playing regulary but only full but this time played 3 handed, this hand came up:

The player whom i'm against is a good regular. I had 89s. Flop: 3 7 J raindow. I bet $50 and he calls. Turn: Ko. I bet $150 he calls. River: K. I bet $300 he calls, turn A7o over and says, 'i was hoping you'd put me all in on the river.' I sat out then left.

[sin808]

I agree. If I get outdrawn by someone on a lucky draw, oh well it happens...If I get outplayed it's much more like a slap to the face. Though the latter makes me work even harder on improving my game to minimize the chances of making the same mistakes again.

[Peter Harris]

outlucked is great.

outplayed is horrendous.

it's that simple!

Regards,
Pete Harris

[Clarkmeister]

The crabby, bitter Vegas regulars would rather be outplayed than outlucked. They get very spiteful, cranky and abusive when they get outlucked. However, most of them are incapable of recognizing when they were outplayed, so they are constantly pissed off.

[Al Schoonmaker]

I agree with you. When I get outplayed, I feel foolish. When I get outlucked, oh well.
Al

[bernie]

_

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

I get pissed (at myself) when outplayed. I spend time reviewing the play in my head, looking for the errors in my play and trying to figure out how to play differently. When outlucked, oh well, dems da breaks.

Example (warning, bit of a bad beat story here, but no whining about it at all): Busted out of a local tourney last weekend after playing 2 hours without getting more than two hands worth playing, and winning none of them. I looked down, saw QQ on the button and went all-in. I had only 10x the BB at that point and was called by SB and BB, both with slightly smaller stacks. They turn up K9o and QTo. The turn brings a K and I go home. I was frustrated by the bad cards, but I can't wait to play against those two guys again.

[Al Schoonmaker]

You certainly weren't outplayed. You had a large edge, and you could have tripled up.
Regards,
Al

[Dan Mezick]

I suspect 99% of the people would be OK with being out-lucked, since "luck" is often cited as the reason for results.

This assumes 99% of the people do not take responsibility for results. Which is probably true.

What would happen to poker if 100% of the players took responsibility for 100% of their results?

Think about it. (For more than 60 seconds)

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

Exactly. I was outlucked, which is why I love playing at the lodge.

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

I start out with the assumption that wins and losses are my responsibility, then only blame luck if my analysis (or the analysis of my 2+2 colleages) shows I made the right play.

[Tony Corbett]

[ QUOTE ]
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Pick the statement you agree most with:

"I don't mind being out played, but I can't stand being out lucked"

"I don't mind being out lucked, but I can't stand being out played"
</pre><hr />

[/ QUOTE ]

"I don't mind being out played, but I can't stand being out lucked"

I'm going to pick this one because when I'm outplayed I may feel a little foolish but I also learn from the experience. To me being outplayed is just paying for a poker lesson and so I don't mind.

When I'm out lucked however it annoys me because I feel as though I'm being punished for doing the right thing while my opponent is being rewarded playing incorrectly. The feeling is brief since I know badbeats are a good thing when the numbers are crunched at the end of the year.

[RoodyPooh]

I don't mind being outlucked since I've learned to look at it as a statistical expectancy. When someone outplays me I get pretty angry with myself. If someone makes me lay down the best hand(especially in a BIG pot), I feel like hanging myself.

[Al Schoonmaker]

Your anger is directed at the right person, yourself.
Far too many people get angry at the person who outplayed them. They may try to get even, which can easily cost them lots of chips.
Regards,
Al

[andyfox]

Many of the Commerce regulars too. They're much more concerned about being unlucky than about losing less $ when they are, and about being lucky than winning more $ when they are.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
What would happen to poker if 100% of the players took responsibility for 100% of their results?

[/ QUOTE ]
The fish would stop having fun, take responsibility for thereby wasting their leisure time, and quit.

The former winners would then take responsibility for their decision to devote so much time to learning a game with no future and ...

Man, this is depressing /images/graemlins/frown.gif.

[StellarWind]

I try to accept that both being outplayed and outlucked are normal parts of poker and not get unduly upset.

[ QUOTE ]
If I am being outplayed, I am exercizing poor game selection and playing my cards sub optimally, both of which are things I have control over.

[/ QUOTE ]
If I choose to sit down with Phil Hellmuth and eight monkeys for my usual stakes, am I exercizing poor game selection? If I play my very best but Phil kicks my ass once in a while should I be upset? Should I be disappointed if I only win half as much money as he does?

Be upset with yourself when you don't play up to your ability, when you don't give your best, and when you don't learn from experience.

[donkeyradish]

If the Monkeys beat you will you be upset? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
If the Monkeys beat you will you be upset? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, hey we're the Monkeys
At poker we don't monkey around
We're too busy raising
You better lay your hand down.

[Transference]

I almost feel ashamed admitting it but I belive it feels better to me personally when I am outplayed. This might be because compared to many of you I'm rather new to the game. The fact is I can respect a brilliant play and a brilliant player. If I'm outplayed I can say well done, and mean it (note that I'm assuming my play, in the scenario, wasnt lousy). I can learn something new and enjoy the challenge that I am now confronted with (get better). This a chain of events that makes sense.
If I get a horrible beat from a terrible player my understanding of the game is undermined, albiet very briefly. I played the best I could and yet I am still powerless to win. Futhermore somone who plays badly has taken my money. This happens and there is absolutely nothing I can do about it. Even as you grow as a player this still stings, this is emotionally frustrating even as you rationally accept these losses as part of poker.

To alter the metaphor a bit,
You loose heads up to Phil Helmuth.
You loose heads up to a monkey.

After which loss do you feel better about yourself? After which loss do you feel better about the game of poker?

[Glenn]

"You loose heads up to Phil Helmuth.
You loose heads up to a monkey"

How are these any different?

[Transference]

you just knew someone was gonna go there...

[prairieboy]

If I get outplayed, I have the opportunity to learn something from the experience.

If I get outlucked, it just means that it will take me that much longer to win all of the other guy's money.

[CORed]

For some reason, it always annoys me to get beat by a stupid draw. Inellectually, I know that this is a player I want in the game, and that it will be much easier to get the money back from the fish than it would be from somebody that beat me with good play, but for some reason I get a little ticked off by the fish that hits his gutshot, rag two pair or rag trips on the river. I guess it's the feeling that the fish didn't deserve to win the hand.

[dcJohn]

Amen to that! God, after all the complaining of bad beats I came across on Party today I was beginning to quesiton my own sanity on this issue.

I'm GLAD to have people making bad beats. People getting mixed up with hole cards they should fold, calling way out of +EV, that's what I want. Since equally good play as myself has long-term likelihood of a draw, those are the kinds of players I *need* at the table.

I figure winning in poker has two neccessary conditions:
1. I play solid poker
2. I have someone to play against who isn't playing solid poker.

If no one at the table is going around getting bad beats then I'm at the wrong darn table.

Sure, I'd rather have the bad beat hit someone else. But I'd rather have a bad beat hit me--and get evidence of the right sort player at the tabe--than see nothing but nonstop solid play.

I also have a nice bit of tilt insurance now :-):
Last week I competed in my first face-to-face NL tournament (at Borgata). I made it into the final two tables and was a high chip holder. I got player to go all-in against me when I held AA and he ended up holding JJ. As you can guess, he hit a jack. Short stacked me (1 blind left) and essentially made the difference between my final tournament win ($160) and what I could have just sat on with the chip count I would have won without the bad beat (very likely $2500-5,000 payout place).

So now, now when I get a bad beat--if the fact that this is the kind of player I *want* starts to fade from my brain--I just think back to that effectively thousands of dollar beat and think how small it is in comparison. Helps spur on getting to just smiling, shrugging it off, and being happy for the play quality indication. :-)

[Cpt Spaulding]

I didn't read all the responces to your question, so this may be a reapeat. I think the person was saying that he would rather lose to someone with a KK in the hole to his QQ instead of having AA and being called by 72os and the person hitting the flop. Personally I would rather lose the KK hand. I would go out knowing I made the right play and lost to better cards. When you make the right play you are not being outplayed, you are just getting beat by a better hand. To be honest.... I hate to get beat period.