how bad a play or a good steal tactic

2 limpers in mid position too me in BB with j/t off. Flop is

A/K/3, no flush possible.


Both players are reasonably good players with decent starting hand requirements. First player bets next player raises to me, I make it 3 bets.


I did this because they both have respect for my game and at least one did not have a Ace. I figured one for a A/10 and the other for a pocket pair trying to get a cheap river. If ythey do not improve they will fold on the turn or river when I bet into them, plus I have a gut shot, not counting on this though.


Turn is the Q, I bet it he 2 bets me other player folds I make it three bets and he calls, he calls the river also when a 9 comes.


He turned over A/K off and whipped his cards.


I have some background, player in at river has been running bad, but still plays well and he had chips in front fo him so he wasn't going all in no matter what cards came.


1. Isn't this the reason that a/k off should always be raised?


2. Is the 3 bet on the flop that bad if the players have respect for you?


3. all comments and critics are welcome ( I know they are out there)


Swiss Cheese

1. This is ONE reason to raise with AK. There are other reasons such as, getting more money in the pot, trying to get better position, lowering opponents implied odds etc..


2. When there is a raise you are almost sure to be beaten in one spot. The problem is that you need a major parlay to happen here: You need them BOTH to have hands they are likely to be able to lay down, then you need them BOTH to actually do it. Yes you do have 4 outs, but these kind of plays will be better used when you have all kinds of outs. If you have enough outs it can be correct to try these plays even if there is a tiny chance they'll fold. But in this case it sounds like a pretty bad approach to me- much too low a percentage play to end up profitable in the long run.


3. Good thing you hit your Jack on the turn :-)

1. Ak should have raised.


2. Yes. The 3 bet is that bad. Your out of position against 2 solid players with a bad draw. There is very little chance for both of them to be bluffed out of this hand. Big mistake. You were very lucky to hit that queen. That play is a big loser in the long run.

Since we're being results oriented about the non-raise with AK, consider that by not raising he got you to commit 7 small bets after the flop with a four-outter.


Tommy

3 small bets, no Tommy? The next 4 went in with the nut straight!

If I understood it right, swiss cheese was planning on the flop to bet the turn and the river even if he missed. That's a commitment to seven small bets with a four-outter.


If he missed the turn and bet and got raised, then presumably he would have called the raise to draw, and then check-folded the river. Again, seven small bets postflop.


Tommy

For #3 I meant to say Queen not Jack. oops.

Good point Tommy. There's no doubt about it, this play was pure suicide. Not much upside whatsoever.

Do you think JTo shoudl be layed down preflop from the BB? I don't think so. (If the preflop action goes Raise call then I think definitely, only if it goes call raise and the the caller in early position likes to limp raise might folding in the BB be correct).


On the flop this isn't a good place to try and steal. The pot isn't big, most people aren't going to lay down a decent

ace and it isn't impossible that someone has two pair or some other big hand as opposed to just getting a free ride to the river when they raise the flop.

"Do you think JTo should be layed down preflop from the BB?"


I'm leary of the word "should." My choice is to almost always muck. But that's not what I was getting at. In criticizing the limp with AK from a results standpoint, if a preflop raise would not have caused swiss cheese to muck his J-10, then it's doubtful a raise by the AK would have affected the results. If memory serves, swiss cheese said he thought the AK should have raised, and I stretched to interpret that as meaning he would have mucked J-10.


Tommy

I would have mucked the j/10 in a heart beat if there was a preflop raise and not at least 6 players in to call the extra bet. I do appreciate the criticism because i know it is deserved.


Swiss Cheese

Heh, maybe I suck but I differ with a lot

of the expressed opinions.


1) I don't muck TJ for 1 bet preflop, when

the pot has 5 bets in it, unless the raiser

is a rock. TJ won't get into second-place

trouble a lot of the time (you have to worry

about AJ, but usually both your cards

are live.) Against an loose raiser, I'll

even call this heads-up (i.e., 3 bets in the pot.)


2) While I thought the three bet play was

super-aggressive and possibly bad, I didn't

think it was terrible. I can definetly think

of times when my table image combined with my

knowledge of the opponents would lead me to

believe that this play would work. What

swisscheese has going for him is that with

that board, it's hard for people to think he's

raising on a draw. Also, the pot is small so

it's hard to put him on a bluff. He got

unlucky that there was a strong A out against him.


3) If you know your competition well enough,

you might realize that the original better is

the type to bet as a bluff or with any pair, and

the raiser is the type to recognize it and thus

raise as a play or with a weak hand.

Thus, three-betting if you have a tight image

could work up to 50% of the time, and you're

getting 6 to 3 odds on your bet.


4) Your strategy needn't be to bet the turn and/or

river. It could be to bet the turn and give

up on the river, or it could be to check the

turn if somebody calls the flop, hoping you've

scared him into submission and looking for two

free cards to catch your draw.


Probably a slightly bad play, possibly a good

one under the right circumstances. Of course, if

you have a reckless or even moderate image, it's

a pure waste of money. They've got to believe

you have a set when you make this play.


Besides, think of the subsequent action you're

gonna get after you show down your TJ!

Just because he would have gotten 7sb from the bb doesn't mean he was correct to limp. Sounds like your being results oriented as well.

I was being overly and blatantly results oriented.