Pocket 88

25-50 game HE.

I mucked 88 after one limper the other night...and after discussing the play with a poker colleague, am questioning the validity of the play.

It was a rather tight game....there was one solid-ish player that limped in before me (I was third to speak) and then I folded. To my left was a man who was trying to push me off hands all night, and I felt I would be raised preflop by him, if not raised any flop by him. I have to admit I would have limped in 99, in fact I 3 bet 99 the night before versus the agressive player I speak of now. Thus I can't explain how why I would plan to play 99 but muck 88 there. I guess I have a cutoff point for small pocket pairs, and 88 is it. Unless I am getting odds for my 9-1 set chances, I just don't feel that happy about playing 88.

I can see my self limping in and flopping at least one overcard, and I can't see how I can justify callng the agressive player's flop bet/raise with an under pair, with others possibly in. In the 13% (?) chance of an under card board I can play em ok.


Thoughts on 88 preflop? What are my plans to win/good flop scenarios bar a set?


I also mucked AThh and AJo up front. I am worried about becomnig too tight... /images/indifferent.gif

if it is limped or folded to you 88 is worth a call. why not see a flop for one small bet? if you do get raised, it's really your choice to call or fold, but low pocket pairs may be weak, but remember if you do hit a set on the flop, they are VERY SNEAKY and there are innumerable ways to play them, relative to position, player history, etc...etc..


88 happens to be the cutoff for me as well; at the risk of sounding like a rabbitt-foot toting fool, when i play 88 i usually win.

The comforting thing about pocket pairs under 9 is that they are so easy to release if you don't hit the flop. Limp with all of them.

Miles,


If the guy on your left is raising with almost anything, he is raising with quite a few hands weaker than 88. If he is selective but raises every time he comes in, then you have something more to fear since hands such as KJ and QJs which might normally be limped with will also pressure you amd narrow the field. But in the later case at least he won't be in so often so more of the field will still limp behind you. This you want.


A pair of eights plays well head up or with four or more opponents. With four opponents you would prefer an unraised pot but with five or more you can handle a raise. Head up it wants position over its opponent since most of your wins have to come without flopping a set. Also note that it would play well with two or three opponents with position in unraised pots (sometimes being first is best against two opponents since it gives you right of first steal on flops that miss your opponents).


What is the point of this ramble? The point is the aggressive guy on your left. His raises narrow the field in such a way that your eights are not in an optimum playing position. Get him on your right by changing seats and find a timid old man or little old lady for your left.


This isn't about eights per se. An extremely aggressive opponent on your left costs you money. The money they lose because of their excess aggressiveness is lost mostly to the players on their left rather then to you. Go there.


Regards,


Rick

FYI, flopping a set isn't 9-1, it's a little less then 8-1. Also remember that pairs also have value the few times that no overcards, or just one overcard flops, or when you flop a straight draw. This combined with your implied odds are why you should limp in even if you only get a couple other callers behind you. You can limp in late position if only 2 or 3 people are in the pot so far. Another advantage for the small pairs is that if your game is agressive, you will get all kinds of action when you get lucky and flop a set.

Rick gives you some good advice.


Btw, AJoff and A10s are too loose up front, but 88's are not. This is the cutoff for some pros. 88's and above. Some wil play all pairs. The reason AJoff and A10 are not good is because even if you flop the A, there may be bigger ones behind you. But pairs, if you hit them, will be good most of the time. And very hard to beat. And are hidden so you will get paid off more than if you hit an A and it was good.

Pocket 8s will probably need to improve to win. Thus they are more playable in a passive game, so that you can see the flop, and later streets cheaply. So it's not an ideal game in which to be limping up front with small pocket pairs.


However, in this case, there was already a solid-ish limper in front of you. Less likely your left-hand opponent would now raise just to push you off your hand, as he's got to worry about the players behind him, the blinds, and the first limper.


I would try to stop my left-hand opponent from pushing you off hands "all night." I would either change seats or push him off of a hand or two myself when conditions and the cards are right.


Folding A-Ts and A-Jo up front in this type of game is correct.

When Utg limps, there is no way I fold 88 when I am next to act. Actually, there is no way I fold 88 when first in or when there has been no raise no matter what but that's another matter altogether. The point here is that two early calls often have the effect of starting a calling frenzy which is exactly what you want with a hand like 88.


I also think it's unwise to let the bully affect your game so much. So what if he raises. I think that you have a hand that can stand a raise from a bully i.e. he will often be raising with 2 cards smaller than an 8 and usually have at least one card smaller than an 8. You certainly ought not to fold the flop if it's just the three of you and the flop is J75 or something.


If you happen to hit a set, you can use the bully as a convenient checkraising station.


All in all, folding 88 here is basically unthinkable to me.