Situation To Talk About

Here is a situation I found myself in and my highly debatable decision.


$30-$60HE at Bay 101. Game was pretty tight and tough. Often 2-3 hands in a row where it was mucked to the blinds who usually chopped. The other times it would be open raised with two, no more than three handed to see the flop.


I noticed three times in a row it was mucked to Tom, on the button, who open raised. All three times the SB folded and I had no brainers to also muck giving him the blinds.


Tom is a good, tough agressive player who makes good decisions circa 95%+.


The next time it occurred where it was mucked to Tom on the button, sure enough, he open raised. At that point I decided that if the SB folded, I would at least call with any hand.


The SB folded, I look down at Qc,8h. The best of the hands I had seen but trash nevertheless. I called. Pot is $140.


Flop brings: Kc,9s,4c


I check, Tom bets. I decide to represent a K or a draw and I checkraise. He ponders and calls.


Turn: 10c


I lead bet. He calls. Not good.


River: 6h.


I believe he likely has at least top pair but know I cannot win if I check and lead out. Tom comments, "That is not a good sign." He calls.


I muck and he says softly, "Whoa."


I decided to play the situation and not the cards on that hand. It cost me $210. Tom did not open raise from the button or cutoff for the next hour after which I left.


I ended up losing $190. that session, one chip short of a stack. The game was not good and rather than play further to get even, my best decision of the night was to get up and leave.

I think the situation you describe happens a lot at tight 20 and 30 games. I tend not to play in these games (given that I've done so a few times and I see no reason not to find a better game at a lower limit -- hell, go home and play online...) That being said, I think if you decide you're going to play this hand for the reasons you've stated, you should re-raise before the flop. I think that he had a tough call a couple of times during the hand, and I suspect that he would've released if you had given him reason to believe your hand was stronger before the flop. With Q8o, you're not likely to get paid off by this player (if he is as solid as you say he is) unless you are beat. (Although it appears that he paid you off with a relatively weak hand given his comment on the river.) I don't know if I would "worry" about him raising 3 times in a row, but I would have a stronger hand/play back. What you did here gave him just enough reason to believe his hand might be good... What was his hand, BTW?


-CW

china willy,


I thought about three betting preflop before I looked at my hand but decided to go with the call raise and lead or checkraise the flop. This way it appears I hit my hand rather than woke with a big hand.


I was not looking to get paid off. I was using a countermeasure to not just let the blind go without consequences.


He never had to show his hand as I mucked after he called.


Again, this was a "variance" play where I was not playing the strating cards but the situation. If one does mix it up they become to predictable. This decision was not necessarily a good one.


Bob

I think I am in agreement with you that it wasn't a great decision, I just think that if you are going to represent a hand, you may as well do it sooner rather than later. It seems to me that he was close to folding on two separate occassions (especially on the river given his comments...) If you have a chance to push him off whatever he has, I think that you greatly increase that chance by representing great strength with a PF 3-bet. Still, I think we agree that this was not the place or the hand. It sounds to me like you made your decision not to be pushed around, looked at your cards, saw a paint card, and let it fly from there. From what you're trying to accomplish, you may as well have played your hand blind and showed as much aggression as possible.


What do you *think* he called with (even though he wasn't made to show)?


Best,

-CW

Hi Bob,

I used to always smooth call in the BB when the button raised and mostly checkraise the flop when i hit or wanted to try a counter steal. The problem is that with a counter steal checkraise you will be called a lot of the time and will have to invest a bet on the turn (where the button will often lay down if he still has nothing). However, the button often feels tied to the pot after investing a bet on the flop so will call your checkraise with as little as 1 overcard.


For the same 3 small bets (call preflop and checkraise on the flop) you can 3 bet preflop and lead the flop. In my experience players will lay down their steal hands that miss the flop in this scenario as often as they will on the turn in the previous one but you don't have to invest that big bet on the turn, and they don't get that 4th card to improve.


Next time you decide that you are going to play at him on the flop instead of laying down when you miss completely you may want to consider just 3 betting preflop and leading the flop. Its a little cheaper, he won't see the turn as often, and in my experience has a very similar effect against a steal that misses the flop.


Rob

"The SB folded, I look down at Qc,8h. The best of the hands I had seen but trash nevertheless."


I was enjoying the story right up to this point.


"I called."


Yeech. Your prior mucking set you up perfectly for a three-bet here, for all the reasons so well spelled out by Rob and china willy.


"I check, Tom bets. I decide to represent a K or a draw and I checkraise"


Bob, I wouldn't say this if we weren't face-to-face pals, but it sounds to me like you had pretty much decided to show down any two cards for a stack or so, before looking at your cards.


But then, maybe I'm being results oriented. If he had folded to the check-raise, well, then it'd be easy to feel like you showed that bluffer a thing or two.


The reason I keep folding the Q-8's even if a guy just robbed me five times in a row is because after a while he expects to get played with by someone making a stand because of the timing, not because of their hand. That means he will underrate my hand, on average, and that's why I'm going to have the goods (an ace or two paints or a pair) when I finally reraise preflop and bet the flop.


Another thing to consider is that he's not really robbing you of your big blind. He's taking what's naturally his by being last to act. I read somewhere that Abdul says being last in a heads up pot is worth one BB. To overcome that, I think you need a hand to defend, every time.


Tommy

I find it easier to counter-stael by smoothcalling preflop and then leading at the flop no matter what it is but preferably when there is a big card out there like a King or an Ace. For this to work, you should also lead at least some of the time on those occasions when you do flop top pair even if it's Kings or Aces.


I am not disagreeing with what you are saying...just offering another approach that seems to work for me.

china willy, yeah, a three bet preflop was also a viable option. Oh, I am pretty sure he had miminally a strong king, maybe two pair or better.


Rob Papp, Hi Rob. I agree with what you have to say. Frankly, if the hand would have been 7-2 offsuit I would have done the same. I had decided before looking at my hand I was playing. Hope to see you at Bellagio again at the $30-$60 games.


skp, I like the action of leading the flop. If Tom missed his hand he will let it go. Less costly to win the pot right away.


Tommy, "Bob, I wouldn't say this if we weren't face-to-face pals, but it sounds to me like you had pretty much decided to show down any two cards for a stack or so, before looking at your cards."


Yup. Hit it on the nail. Just one other point here. While my first objective was to use a countermeasure for what I perceived as blind stealing(perfectly legal in 27 states), I also made a play to win this pot. Tom is not reckless and not one to pay off one small bet if it is not positive EV. When he bet the flop there was $170. in the pot. As results have it, he surely hit top pair(at least) and I kept pressing the turn and river with flush and straight cards falling.


You all make sense. I learned from this hand and your helpful comments. Thanks.


Bob