good/bad/it depends

[stripsqueez]

its folded to you on the button with 77 - you know what to do and the BB calls - the BB is decent

flop is K K 9 rainbow - check - bet - raise - call

what the plan for those who like call ?

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[naphand]

I really don't like check/calling the Turn and River but may do so if he is considerably unknown.

I prefer raise the Turn (fold to a 3-bet) and hope for a free showdown unimproved.

I think it's hard to fold the Turn for 1 bet without a good-solid read, and by then you are at the River and, umm can't really fold.

I quite like 3-bet the flop and check the Turn against a player who will often CR the Turn, unless I put him on a draw, in which case I lead the Turn.

In the position you have here I prefer to Raise the Turn, if he checks the Turn then I am a bit unsure. He could be trying a CR or making a free-card play. I am very tempted to check behind and call the River bet (this way I catch a bluff on a missed draw, and avoid a nasty CR when he has the K).

[Schneids]

What do you think of 3-betting the flop, and if he calls then checking the turn when he checks to you, then either calling a river bet or betting it yourself?

Of course a lot of this depends, obviously... Sometimes with more specific reads you'll know the likelihood of him 3-betting 66 or 88 from his BB, or check raising with QJ, or check-raising with ace high.

I know a free card really sucks, but this seems like the cheapest way to get to showdown against someone who could be capable of smooth-calling a 3-bet with the intentions of check raising the turn on another bluff/semi-bluff.

If your flop 3-bet were to get 4-bet calling or folding I think depends too much on what your past encounters have been like and how fast both of you have been playing the flop thus far at the table, as well as if he does have a king and you spiked a 7 just how much action would he give on the turn and river...

[King Yao]

Flop: Only call if you think the check-raise can bluff or can semi-bluff with QJ, QT, JT (most players in 6-max 10/20 or higher will, but maybe not in lower limits)

Turn is not a danger card (not an A, Q, J, T or 9)
1. If he checks: Bet with the intention to fold to a raise. If he check-raises you twice, it seems unlikely he is on a straight draw. If he calls, just check it down on the River.
2. If he bets: Call. If he is bluffing or semi-bluffing, you want him to continue to do so on the River. You don't want to raise a player if he has QJ unless you know he cannot bluff on the River after you have raised and you have the discipline to fold to a bet on the River.

Turn is a straight danger card (Q, J or T)
Give up. Fold if he bets, check if he checks and fold on the River.

Turn is an A
If he bets: Call or Raise (fold to a re-raise unless against the most aggressive of them all)
If he checks: check and call a bet on the River if a Q, J or T does not come up.

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
how fast both of you have been playing the flop thus far at the table

[/ QUOTE ]

thats interesting - is fast supposed to read as a version of aggressive ? - tempo is an underated subject

i dont like call much - i think you need to take a view nearly all the time even if its a guess - i think your answer is right

i'm toying with you a bit schneids because this is a hand i played against you (at least close enough) - i think its an interesting spot - alternatively i hated the result enough to post it - you called the flop bet and hit a 7 on the turn - as i actually had my flop raise i was thereafter doing my best to get your quest over the line

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
2. If he bets: Call

[/ QUOTE ]

doesnt this seem a bit too passive ? - not just this bit but the whole plan - it may not be an uncommon line given the number of guys who will take a shot on the flop and i think its a reasonable plan - but - calling down from the flop seems like a lot of relatively cheap cards if your in front

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
thats interesting - is fast supposed to read as a version of aggressive ? - tempo is an underated subject

[/ QUOTE ]

I read fast to mean the times you flop strong hands or monsters, whether you start going wild on the flop or instead lay low until the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
i dont like call much - i think you need to take a view nearly all the time even if its a guess - i think your answer is right

i'm toying with you a bit schneids because this is a hand i played against you (at least close enough) - i think its an interesting spot - alternatively i hated the result enough to post it - you called the flop bet and hit a 7 on the turn - as i actually had my flop raise i was thereafter doing my best to get your quest over the line

[/ QUOTE ]

When did this hand happen? I think I remember something like it, but I just searched through my Pokertracker all the way back to May 20 and couldn't even find one hand where you went to showdown against me and I won it. I dunno, this hand is odd. I would like a time machine to go back in time and see what I was thinking and why I chose to call your flop check raise, since that seems like a terrible choice. Change the low card on the board to something lower than my PP on the button and it's still a bad choice, but not quite as terrible.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
what the plan for those who like call ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm wondering if the button is planning on raising the turn to represent the king he must have decided BB didn't have based on BB's flop check raise? The more I think about it I believe that has to be button's approach for a flop smooth call since otherwise I cannot see any possible reason for one.

[King Yao]

I don’t know if your original post was an extension of another thread or not. I’m assuming you are calling the Flop because you think there is a good chance he is bluffing or semi-bluffing. Otherwise you should fold. If your post was addressed specifically to the people who would always call after a check-raise on this Flop with this hand against all players, then I should not have responded, since I would fold in that spot against some players.

But here’s my response anyway…..
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2. If he bets: Call

[/ QUOTE ]
doesnt this seem a bit too passive ? - not just this bit but the whole plan - it may not be an uncommon line given the number of guys who will take a shot on the flop and i think its a reasonable plan - but - calling down from the flop seems like a lot of relatively cheap cards if your in front

[/ QUOTE ]
It is passive, but I think it is correctly passive against aggressive players. As I stated, if the player is willing to check-raise semi-bluff with an inside straight draw, then calling him down is better. If he won't check-raise semibluff with an inside straight draw (or check-raise bluff), then you shoud’ve folded on the Flop. It is player dependent. Against a complete stranger, I think a fold on Flop is probably best….but against players I know that are this aggro (I’m sure we all know many like this), I think this is the right play. Free cards are bad only if they allow your opponent to make the correct play. But don’t be afraid to give a free card if it tickles your opponent in making a wrong play when they did not benefit from the free card.

Some possibilities, assuming the assessment of aggro as the opponent is correct:

If he is on draw and you raise – you make or lose 2 bets.
1. he calls on Turn and if he misses on the River, he'll check, you made 2 bets on Turn.
2. he calls on Turn and if he catches on the River, whether he bets or checks, you lost 2 bets on Turn (you're not going to bet if a Q, J, T comes on river and he checks to you...and you're going to fold if he bets into you, so you don't lose more).

He is on draw and you call – you lose 1 bet if he catches and make 2 if he doesn’t
1. if he misses on River, he’ll bet. You made 2 bets, one on Turn, one on River.
2. if he catches Q,J,T on the River, he’ll bet…and you’ll fold…you lose 1 bet on Turn and zero on River.

He has K or 9 and you raise - you usually lose 2 bets
1. if he re-raises, you fold…if he calls Turn and bets on River, you fold….you lost two bets
2. If he calls, you check/fold on River if a A, Q, J, T, 9 comes, but you may lose an extra bet if something else comes and he bets (because you ain’t sure if he’s bluffing with a draw)

He was on an A-high bluff – you win 2 bets or win 1 bet
1. he was bluffing with A-high and you raise…he’ll either call and check/fold on River…or fold on Turn ..you usually win 2 bets or 1 bet
2. he was bluffing with A-high and you call…he’ll likely bluff again on river..you win 2 bets, sometimes 1

The question with A-high is whether he is more likely to bluff on River (why not? He’s bluffed on Flop and Turn, a lot of these guys will keep going), or fold to your raise on Turn (you don’t want him to fold, you want him to bluff…your raise may force an aggressive player to re-evaluate and now fold.). If he isn’t aggro, then just calling on Turn is bad….but again, I’m assuming you correctly pegged him that way.

I think this is similar to when you are on the River in early position with a hand that you think is 50/50 to win against an aggressive but thinking player. If you check, he will usually bet whether or not he was ahead (if he’s ahead, he’ll bet for value…if he’s behind, he’ll bet for bluff)…if you bet, he will usually fold when he is beat. Putting in numbers to show my point: if you check, he’ll bet with 80% of his best hands….50% of the time he wins, 30% of the time you win…..if you bet, he’s only calling with 70% of his hands…..50% of the time he wins, 20% of the time you win. Checking with intention of calling is passive, but against an aggro, it is correct in that situation.

So back to your hand, the call on the Turn is to put him in a similar position as the late position player on the River (discussed in previous paragraph)….don’t stop him from bluffing, and don’t give him a reason to fold a worse hand.

Of course it is dependent on the player. If you think he will be passive and check/fold on the River if he misses his straight draw, then the raise on the Turn is best….however, if he is semi-bluffing check-raising and betting out on the turn with a semi-bluff, then I think he is more likely to be the aggressive type and bet again…or you pegged him wrong and you should’ve folded on the Flop