Hand to Talk About

Here's a hand that I played this evening in a $30-$60 game at The Bellagio.


An aggressive player raised first in from a middle position. Everyone passed to me and I held KcKs on the button. Before I could act the small blind folded. I called and the big blid folded.


The flop was 7c4h2c. My opponent bet, I raised, he reraised, and I called.


The turn was the 10d. My opponent bet and I called.


The river was the 2h. My opponent bet, I raised, he called, and my hand was good. (I did not see his hand.)


All comments are welcome.

If you're going to choose to play the hand deceptively by not 3-betting pre-flop, then I don't understand your flop raise. It seems you could get the most out of this hand by waiting to raise on the turn. He may have three-bet you there as well and you could either 4-bet the turn or raise the river just as you did. You got two extra small bets out of him on the flop but I think you could have gotten at least two extra big bets out of him on the turn.


I don't think you got the most out of this hand in a heads-up situation. If it weren't a head-up confrontation, then I would definitely raise on the flop as well.


By the way he played the hand, I assume he had a pocket pair smaller than Kings but obviously not Ts,7s,4s, or 2s.

If the aggressive player was also a good player, I would favor three-betting before the flop. I would expect you to have AA or KK more frequently after smooth-calling in this situation as opposed to three-betting. Another factor which might favor three-betting would be if the BB was a good/tricky player. OTOH, if the preflop raiser was excessively aggressive and the BB player was not so good, I would like the smooth-call.


"The flop was 7c4h2c. My opponent bet, I raised, he reraised, and I called."


I like your play here. You have let your aggressive opponent maintain the initiative, while allowing him to think you probably have a draw (i.e., AK, AQ). I would now think the opponent's most probable hand is an overpair (higher than 77).


"The turn was the 10d. My opponent bet and I called."


I would favor raising here. I think many players will call a raise here with as little as two outs (hoping your raise is a semi-bluff). Of course, the opponent could also have a flush and/or straight draw for which I want to charge him.


"The river was the 2h. My opponent bet, I raised, he called, and my hand was good."


Since you didn't raise the turn, I have no problem with raising the river, assuming this opponent is apt to pay off with 88-QQ.


-Mike

Given that the SB folded out of turn, I think just calling preflop might be the best play. For one thing, the BB is now less likely to call a reraise since you now know the SB won't be in to improve his pot odds, and you would like to let him in when you have by far the best of it in a 3 way pot. And of course, you gain some postflop equity by getting your aggressive opponent to misread your hand, which may get you a lot of action if he holds a hand like AK AQ KQ QQ-TT and flops an overpair or top pair. Finally, if the BB does come in, you are in excellent position to blow him out of the pot whenever you like (assuming he doesn't make something better than a pair) by raising the aggressive preflop raiser on a later street.


On the flop, your raise doesn't have to look like anything more than overcards to your opponent, especially given your smoothcall preflop. So with AK AQ or any overpair, your aggressive opponent is probably going to 3 bet it, and still give you a chance to raise on the turn or river.


On the turn, you don't want to lose him with a raise if he has AK or AQ, so I have no problem with the call here which either gives your aggressive opponent a chance to bet these hands again on the river or induces him to call your river bet if he fails to improve and checks it to you. However, if he has an overpair, you risk losing a bet with this play, since he should check an overcard on the river when you look to be playing overcards, but would probably call you down if you raise him on the turn and bet an overcard on the river. I think whether to raise or call the turn is largely a factor of knowing your opponent. If he can fold AK AQ or a small overpair for a raise on the turn, the call is best. But if he would call a raise with these hands, and is more likely to have the overpair than the AK or AQ, then I think a raise might be better.


On the river, I think the raise is obviously correct after you don't raise on the turn.


By the way, would you have considered folding if an ace came on the river and your opponent bet or check raised?

I don't think any hand plays better 3 or 4 way than 2 way. Therefore, if there is 1 raiser before me and I am in the cuttoff or on the button and I decide i'm going to play, I always 3 bet. Is this thinking flawed? Did you want the BB to play with you? giving him 17:3 (almost 6:1) is going to make him call with a lot more hands than if he's getting 23:6 (almost 4:1). Given the action, I'd wait for the turn to raise him.


Rob

I think it was pretty silly of your opponent to bet the 2h on the river.


p.s. when is a good time to catch you at the Bellagio? I hope to introduce you to the "hillbilly" sometime between oct. 24 and 28

A three bet may have led to a 4-bet cap. A call on the flop would still give the impression that the aggressive player is still on top. A raise on the river might have ended in a three of four bet also. However, if this player still bets on the river a crying call is all your hand is worth.

wow nice one. this is really perfect the way you played this.

just calling on the turn and then raising on the river is the best way to maximize your profits here. you used the texture of the board, and the smoothcall preflop, to completely throw the raiser off. how would he ever guess you have something like KK until you raise on the very end, when he has to pay you off?


if an A came on the river im assuming you would have just called. is the same true if a Q or J fell?

I've read some of the threads on how brilliant the play was. I wonder if the BB called with a hand like A-9o or A-6o or something like that and then an A fell on the flop how brilliant the play would be? Obviously Mason had his reason and took a chance by playing this way but I think he should 3 bet before the flop.


Similarly I think he should have raised the turn rather than the river. Obviously it depends on the read of the player and I don't kwow this player, however, against most players, including overly agrressive players, I would raise the turn rather than the river. If the opponent has a pocket pair he will call Mason down if he is raised on the turn, however, even if he has an overpair he very well may check the river and then Mason would have lost one big bet.

I think you maximized your return on this hand, but at some risk. Preflop, I would put you on 88-TT or AJs, AQs. I like the flop raise and call. I probably would raise the turn in case he is playing an ace-big kicker. This is probably minor since he probably has only 3 outs. The scary thing is if he has AA (6 ways) or TT,77(3ways each), he three bets you and bets the river costing you an extra bet because you have to call in my opinion. On the other hand, being the aggressive player he is, he could do the same thing with QQ,JJ,99,88 (6 ways each) AT,QT,JT (assume suited three ways each) KT (suited one way). I don't know how liberal his raising standards are. The point is that in situations where he reraises, you should have the better hand more times than not. 34 ways to win and 12 ways to lose.


My head hurts and I think you played the hand fine anyway.

I assume that the aggressive player (AP) was only aggressive when others play passively.


Pre-Flop


If this is the case, you can keep AP aggressive if you just call pre-flop. However, you are risking immediate EV by not 3-betting, and you may be letting the Big Blind in with Ax.


Flop


The raise is good because it is consistent with overcards or a draw. Four betting could give your hand away, but if AP knows that you will occasionally four bet the flop with a draw you may want to consider reraising.


Turn/River


Calling the turn and raising the river maximizes your profit if AG has overcards. However, if AG knows you will occasionally raise the turn with a draw after being 3-bet on the flop, you may want to consider raising since AG may 3-bet the turn with QQ or JJ.


Questions


Would you have raised the river if an Ace hit and AG bet into you?


What if a Queen or Jack hit, would you still raise the river?

Mason,


Let's say the big blind would come in for one more bet but not for two. Then he ends up beating you. A lot of us would then use that as a basis to criticize this play. But it wouldn't NECCESARILY mean the play was wrong.


~ Rick

"Let's say the big blind would come in for one more bet but not for two. Then he ends up beating you. A lot of us would then use that as a basis to criticize this play. But it wouldn't NECCESARILY mean the play was wrong."


Exactly


For example, if the BB has Ax and would call 1 but not 2, is Mason better off raising or calling? I'm not sure it's clear.


If Mason just calls and the flop comes down without an ace, Mason made the same 1sb he would've made by raising pre-flop while keeping the aggressive player aggressive. If an ace does come down, however, Mason may actually save bets, since the flop may be bet and raised to him on the flop before it gets to him and Mason can lay the hand down. If Mason 3-bets, BB folds and aggressive player calls, then the hand is more difficult to play if an Ace falls. He may have to call aggressive player down.


And does Mason really want hands like KQ, KJ, KT et cetera to fold? Or connectors that have to catch two pair or better to beat him?

I prefer to put the raise in on the turn just so I'm getting my money in when I'm (probably) ahead. If things go smooth on the river, I'll put a bet in, but if a scare card hits (in this case only an ace really would freeze me up), I can retain the option to slow down.


JG

I think your turn/river play was excellent. When your aggressive opponent three bets on the river it's very likely that he has either a pocket pair that you will beat most of the time or a flush draw.


POCKET PAIR: If you just call on the turn (like you did), and then raise on the river you will win 3 bets (on turn/river). If you choose to raise on the turn your opponent will probably call, and then check-call on the river. That is, you win 3 bets in both cases. If you are beat (AA or 77) you'll lose 4 bets in both cases.


FLUSH-DRAW: If you raise on the turn like many seem to suggest, and the club doesn't come on the river you will win 2 bets. The reason is that your opponent will likely check-fold on the river, since you showed strength on the turn. If you just call the turn (like you did) and the club doesn't come you will probably still make 2 bets. The reason is that this is an aggressive opponent who is likely to bet again on the river if his flush-draw doesn't get there.


If you raise on the turn and a club DOES come, you will lose 3 bets since you have to call the river. However, and this is my whole point: If you just call on the turn (as you did) and a club hits on the river you will only lose 2 bets, since you won't raise the river if a club hits.


IN SHORT: By calling on the turn you will save a bet if your opponent is on a flush draw and fills up on the river.


Sincerely,


Emil Grimming

I'd take it farther and say that if you are playing with someone who will fold a big A on the turn to your raise then you can bet the river when an A falls and your opponent checks. That is, an A is no longer a scary river because it either confirms that you were already beat or misses a 2-outer. Thoughts? Anyway, I do like to wait to the river as Mason did to pop someone here every once in a while just to vary things (last time I did it the guy had aces tho).

n/t

I disagree w/ the implication that a club 3-flush freezes you on the river...

The the second sentence should of course be: when opponent three bets on THE FLOP...


Yeez, I'm such a slapdash boy:o)

Haven't read the other responses.


Preflop - your smoothcall is fine given that the sb was folding out of turn. The risk of letting the bb in cheap (assuming that he would call one raise but not two) is worth it given the strength of your holding i.e ya, the bb might hit a cheap ace but the ace may hit the preflop raiser in any event so you don't necessarily lose much when an Ace hits. There are benefits to smoothcalling (i.e. getting excessive action postflop) which justify the risk.


Flop


Raising an aggressive player is preferable to waiting until the turn because aggressive players will often make it 3 bets with just AK/AQ which allows you to get multiple bets in on the flop and the turn. Plus, a raise here continues to hide the strength of your hand. I like the fact that you just smoothcalled the 3 bet rather than making it 4 bets as that ensures that this guy will lead again on the turn.


Turn


There are 13 small bets in the pot when it is your turn to cat. If you raise, your opponent will be deciding whether it is worth it to put in 2 small bets for a pot that has 17 small bets. If he has AK or AQ, he will probably call thinking that he may have 6 outs when in fact he has only 3. He may fold - which though not as good as him calling - is still okay for you given the size of the pot.


I would raise the turn. The problem with waiting until the river is that if a flush card gets there (or perhaps an Ace if the other chap has QQ or JJ), the other guy will probably check. Also, if he is prone to posture or overplay a hand that is inferior to KK, he is more likely to do so on the turn rather than the river.


If he has AA, he probably just calls and if he has TT, well, you are up the creek.


Factoring all of that, I would raise on the turn.

Aggressive players probably will not fold AK when Mason raises the turn. They will think that they are either drawing dead or have 6 outs but way more often than not, they will convince themselves they have 6 outs.


I agree that the turn play is dependant on your opponent and what he thinks of you yada yada yada but usually, it's better to raise on the turn because you may not get a chance to raise on the river if an Ace or a flush card hits.


"By the way, would you have considered folding if an ace came on the river and your opponent bet or check raised?"


I think Mason has to call if an Ace hits and the other guys still bets. If the other guy checks when the Ace hits, Mason should bet.


If the other guy checkraises Mason on an Ace (which is an extremely rare play IMO given the betting sequence thus far), Mason can probably fold and mutter something like "damn, haven't hit a flush in weeks".

Rick,


I think there is definitely risk in letting the BB in for 1 bet, but I suspect it may be worth it in this case for a few reasons.


1) Others have pointed out the BB may call the single raise with a hand like Ax, which he would fold for 3 bets. While probably true, this isn't necessarily a disaster since there is a high chance the preflop raiser holds an ace anyway.


2) A lot of the hands you get the BB to fold with a reraise preflop are hands you would probably like him to play -- dominated stuff like KQ KJs KTs, or medium suited connectors -- since he has to hit twice or make a 5 card hand to beat you. Conversely, some of the hands you would like him to fold he may play for 3 bets anyway: AK AQ AJs ATs.


3) If BB doesn't have an ace or a pair, his chances to outflop you are less than 6% with the ideal suited connector, 98s ("ideal" in this case because he doesn't need a king to make any of his straights) -- he has a 3.4% chance to flop trips or two pair, about a 1% chance to flop a straight, and a 0.8% chance to flop a flush. There are some flops (like pair + flush draw) where the suited connector is about even odds to beat you by the river, but I don't have the chances of those flops readily available.


4) Due to your position, you should be able to blow the BB out of the pot easily with a raise on the flop and/or turn. If he incorrectly calls these raises with a pair less than kings and no other draw, that's even better.


5) By alerting him to your possible big pair preflop, you may lose a lot of action from the aggressive preflop raiser those times he flops an overpair less than kings or top pair with ace kicker. Especially if you are able to do a fast slowplay on a ragged flop like Mason did.


6) Since the SB already folded out of turn, this eliminates one reason to raise. There is a pretty big difference between facing 2 or 3 opponents with KK, but now you know you only have 2 opponents at most to worry about.

Sometimes, you don't even need a tell from the blinds. UTG raises. You pick up AA/KK on the button and see two players to our left as rocks who last called an UTG raise when I still had a full head of hair. Smoothcalling can clearly be the better play.


I recall a hand that I had several months ago with a 2+2'er. He (a solid player) raised UTG and I had KK on the button and smoothcalled fully expecting the two rocks to fold. In fact, the rock in the bb picked up TT (he later told me) and called.


Flop: 993


UTG bets. I just call again expecting the rock to now fold. He called again (Notice that he did not either bet or checkraise the flop)


Turn was another 3. UTG bet and I now raised. Rock hummed and hawwed and finally folded. UTG makes it 3 bets (he correctly figured out that there is no way that I have a 9 there) and I 4 bet it. He called and paid off on the river with QQ.


Poker...a game of rules and exceptions...figuring out which applies is what better players do on a more consistent basis than the others....as you well know.

I'd like to see you post a difficult hand where you think you were out-played in some way. I think it could be much more instructive than this hand. While thinking about how to play KK heads-up with position is valuable (I'm sure I would have reflexively 3-bet pre-flop without thinking), there are much more complicated situations I'd like to read your opinions on.

Though I approved of Mason's preflop smooth-call under specified conditions, I'm not so sure about a couple of your arguments.


Regarding the risk that the BB might call the single raise with Ax, you wrote: "there is a high chance the preflop raiser holds an ace anyway." This is not true of all aggressive players. Some will open-raise with any playable hand, and some even raise with unplayable hands.


"A lot of the hands you get the BB to fold with a reraise preflop are hands you would probably like him to play -- dominated stuff like KQ KJs KTs, or medium suited connectors"


Those medium suited connectors worry me. You say "his chances to outflop you are less than 6%," but this does not account for the times he will flop a flush or straight draw.


"By alerting him to your possible big pair preflop, you may lose a lot of action from the aggressive preflop raiser."


This is true against a typical/mediocre non-maniacal aggressive player. As I argued above, however, I think Mason's preflop smooth-call would alert a sharp-aggressive player to his possible (or probable) AA or KK. I think Mason would be more likely to three-bet with all lesser playable hands in this situation.


-Mike

I think this is a great idea Mason. While it is valuable to discuss a deceptive hand like K-K on the button, this is not where I have a great deal of trouble. It would be very helpful for you to discuss some hands where you bluffed the pot rather than the held the nuts. I seem to play the nuts better than when I have nothing.

I was influenced by the fact that two clubs flopped. If the flop would have been three different suits I would be more likely to play it as you suggest.

"If the aggressive player was also a good player, I would favor three-betting before the flop. I would expect you to have AA or KK more frequently after smooth-calling in this situation as opposed to three-betting."


You're absolutely correct. A better player would not only be suspicious of my call, but would be very wary of my flop raise and realize that he might be trapped. So against a better player this strategy is probably not correct.

"I think Mason has to call if an Ace hits and the other guys still bets. If the other guy checks when the Ace hits, Mason should bet."


That's correct.

In Las Vegas the cap is five bets not four.


I also believe that most players are less likely to three bet you on the river than the turn if they hold the best hand but not a great hand.

If the BB has A9 it should have very little long term effect. Yes he is just barely getting the correct odds to call for the ace given my hand and should pick up some additional money if the ace hits but this is counter balanced by the fact that he might trap himself if a nine hits and by the fact that the original raiser may also have an ace.

Why? The 2h seems like a harmless card.


I should be at either The Mirage or The Bellagio some during the weekend. I usually play in the evening.

The smooth call preflop was predicated on the fact that the small blind folded early.

"Preflop, I would put you on 88-TT or AJs, AQs"


No. I would normally three bet (or fold) with all of these hands. I better player would have realized that something was up.

"Would you have raised the river if an Ace hit and AG bet into you?"


No.


"What if a Queen or Jack hit, would you still raise the river?"


These are definitely cards that would slow me down.

"And does Mason really want hands like KQ, KJ, KT et cetera to fold? Or connectors that have to catch two pair or better to beat him?"


This is correct. With a big overpair I want these hands in. With a hand like AQ I would want most of them to fold, and against this raiser AQ would have been a three bet hand.

Against an opponent as described, I prefer a three bet preflop. I would like to know his hand range before I decided. Since I consider this a good poker situation my three bet hand range is probably a bit wider, and would not tend to frighten the aggressive player. In fact some such players ignite more when countered. Also, I would prefer to three bet with a good player in the big blind. I have no objection to the flat call and it has its place in some situations. Against an UTG tight raiser(for example..I know this is not the case here), your hand range is both so narrow and your desire to conceal information so great that cold calling specifically on the button is my preferred course of action. It also helps protect against the 4 bet by the UTG and most of your hands there don't want that although kings would.


On the turn I would raise unless it might scare off the agressive player into giving up the bluff. If he's paranoid aggressive, I would raise there. By not raising, sometimes you might also get a disgruntled check-call on the river with a dubious holding that would fold to KK turn aggression.


Overall, I think there are good reasons to do what was done, although counter strategies seem viable too, at least to me. Mason was there and I wasn't, so I give the onsite person the benefit of the doubt.


Regards.

When you raise on the flop it can look like a flush draw. If you raise again on the turn you are confirming that your hand is much stronger than a flush draw. Some opponents may now fold marginal hands (such as 99). But by calling on the turn and then raising the river the pot may become too large for them to fold.

I try to post interesting hands that just happen to come up in my play. If one occurs along the lines you suggest, I'll put it up.

"Since I consider this a good poker situation my three bet hand range is probably a bit wider, and would not tend to frighten the aggressive player."


I disagree. If you play well, this type of player will usually just think that you are playing tight. So even though your three bet range should be wider, most of them won't view it that way. It takes a little better opponent to understand this.

I would just like to say that I did hedge a little by prefacing my reasons not to reraise post with "I think there is definitely risk in letting the BB in for 1 bet". That said, let me defend myself a little, although I definitely think you raise some good points (see, there, I'm hedging again /images/wink.gif).


I agree there probably are a decent number of nonace hands the aggressive player would open raise from middle position with, but given Mason has two kings, the chance of most of these hands is cut in half. Say the aggressive player in question raises with AK-T (56 ways), AA-88 (37 ways), KQ-J (16 ways), KTs (2 ways). We could add some hands both ways (suited connectors, Axs) to this mix, depending how aggressive this guy is, but pretend this is pretty representative. So, 56% of these hands have an ace which is enough to call "high", I think. Can we compromise and call it a "decent" chance the preflop raiser holds an ace?


Those suited connectors worry me too, but I still think you should be happy to play against them with a big pair. You almost make it sound like BB should defend with these hands even if Mason reraises, which I guess would make it a moot point either way. Gamble a little, your edge against these medium connectors isn't ever going to get any better. /images/wink.gif


I agree completely with your point about the smoothcall being more scary to a perceptive opponent than a reraise, which I hadn't thought about earlier. I appear to have been vindicated in a results oriented way this time, since the opponent appears not to have been that perceptive, but I can't claim I was thinking about that beforehand.


By the way, if I ever come across as sarcastic or overly sure of myself, don't take it that way. It's hard to tell sometimes how your tone will come across in a written response, and probably not worth the effort it would take to "tone edit" a post anyway. I genuinely appreciate your input (or any input I get from this forum, for that matter).

Since the raiser came in so early, I think you would be more likely to fold then with one of those hands (88-TT,AQs,AJs). I can't imagine you like your chances on an isolation play here unless you have a premium hand like JJ or higher. I would three bet those hands if the initial raise came late. I don't tend to play that aggressive pre-flop, obviously you think it will help my game?

while it's true you played your hand like you might be on a club draw (trying for a free card but failing), since you did call a preflop raise with only one other player in the pot so far, it is highly unlikely IMO that you would call with two suited connectors to even have a flush draw or raise the flop and call a turn bet with just overcards. Unless I had a set or AA I would have checked to you on the river.( and even then I might have gone for a checkraise, depending on my reads)


hope I get to run into you this weekend to thank you for your part in this great forum

"By the way, if I ever come across as sarcastic or overly sure of myself..."


Two points:


1. You don't - not at all; and


2. Even if you did, the advice you give here is just too valuable to ignore.


Keep up the great work!

Michael,


I wrote a longer reply on this yesterday that got lost when my computer froze up. You wrote:


"Those medium suited connectors worry me. You say "his chances to outflop you are less than 6%," but this does not account for the times he will flop a flush or straight draw."


Let's say the big blind had a medium connector and could momentarily see that Mason had KK when he smooth called the initial raise. He also knew that after the flop this memory would be extinguished. Should he play the hand getting 5.67 to 1 pre flop? I would say no. Remember, if he flops a draw with the hand he is about 2 to 1 against making it and he has only two opponents post flop. There is no overlay there. He rarely can semi-bluff Mason out. He will pay to draw. Now if the small blind had called the big blind with middle connectors is starting to get pre flop and post flop odds. But that wasn't the case in this spot.


Anyway, I had other thoughts but now they are in the land of lost bytes ;-) .


Regards,


Rick

Thanks for the feedback. I hadn't really thought about it that carefully and I've probably overvalued medium connectors in short-handed situations.


-Mike

Regarding your tone, perhaps you are referring to a post you made some weeks ago in which you said I played a hand like a kitten? [I think you chose a different word /images/smile.gif] I knew I screwed up that hand and I appreciated your response. No offense taken.


-Mike