Discrimination at the Bellagio

I have just got back from a trip to the WSOP.


Until the second last day I had a great time... played a couple of tournies at Binions (10 off the money in the $1500 nolimit *sigh*)


I don't like the 'shoe much, so as per normal for my cash action I played at Mirage and Bellagio mostly.


I got to play with Mason, Roy Cooke and most importantly.... PokerBabe!!!


Then on my second last day something happened which totally shocked and distressed me and called into doubt whether I would ever come to Vegas again.


I have psorasis. A painful and irritating skin condition. When I play poker there is sometimes a small amount of skin which falls from me onto the table around me. Unsightly, I would agree, but hardly the worst thing that you could imagine. At this point I must stress psorasis is a non-contagious conidition.


One of the other players at my table clearly didn't like the fact I have this condition and complained to the manager.


His reaction? He called me a "public health nuisance" and barred me from the Bellagio poker room. I know for a fact that TJ Cloutier has the same condition. Are they going to bar him too?


I can prove with medical evidence that my condition is no such thing.


I have played in poker rooms all over the world... and although I have very occasionally had players say offensive things... the discrimination has never reached cardroom management.


Now I know when minorites feel when discrimated against.


It isn't very nice.


Keith

I'm sorry Keith, thats just wrong that they banned you from the Bellagio for having a non-contagious skin condition. I doubt most of the managers would make that same ruling, and I think the floorman in question must have thought to himself that your skin condition was contagious (even though I know it is not).


Best of it,


Shawn Keller

Sorry about your unfortunate incident brother. That room manager was way out of line.


Write a letter to a Bellagio VIP giving a detailed description of what happened. Maybe somebody here can give you a name.


Do the paper work, then let it drop if possible. There's worse things can happen.


Hell, try growing up, all the way to grandad status, with the nickname Beauty (pronounced BeeYewty). BU, get it? A fourth grade classmate explained to me BU stands for butt ugly. I popped him on the nose, but my pals who didn't give a damn what I looked like continue to ensure I carry the nick to my grave.


What can you do except laugh? Better than having no nickname at all I suppose.

1. People with contagious diseases do need to be discriminated against,


2. Even if the floorman is a doctor, he can assume his high rollers are not (would you rather play against people who can or can't distinguish between contagious/non-contagious, bluff/non-bluff...)


3. diflorasone diacetate doesn't help?


But all you're really saying, so far as I can tell, is that the floorman is not so arrogant as to presume he can discriminate between contagious and non-contagious maladies, on his customers' behalf. Moreover, cigarette ashes are not contagious, and he probably doesn't want those on the table either. Finally, from what I know about endocrinology and brain physiology, chances are you are a VERY good poker player, and that is reason enough to throw you out /images/wink.gif


eLROY

Well, you could rant here, but that does no good.


As somebody else suggested, write a letter to the "Director of Customer Relations" at the Bellagio. That particular title may not exist, but they'll get the idea - it'll go to the right person.


Your letter should (in articulate and reasonable language):


1. Describe the exact events. Be sure to have dates, times, and names. If necessary, call back to the Bellagio poker room and under some guise or another, get the offender's name.


2. Describe the nature of your condition and how it's not contagious. Perhaps even include a document or some kind of reference to a layman's explanation of the disease. Be sure to drop the "cigarette ash" simile somewhere.


3. Describe the exact compensation you want. This is a key, but often omitted, component of any letter of this nature. Off the top of my head: (1) A night or two comp'd at Bellagio, and (2) A letter from the Bellagio saying that you are a welcome customer in any of their games, anywhere in the casino. Have that letter in your pocket when you play at the Bellagio in the future.


4. Subtly suggest that they're on very thin legal ice by barring you from the poker table. A word to the wise is sufficient.


Let us know how it goes.


Regards, Lee

I'm sick and tired of YOU and persons like you, who feel that the MAJORITY of persons, have to be inconvenienced by your PECULIAR physical state. You don't have a RIGHT, to SHED YOUR SKIN on a poker table, which is used by others. Additionally, you sound like one of those SELF-RIGHTEOUS types. I'll bet "any money" you were wearing a SHORTSLEEVE shirt, when your ass knows damn well, you could have worn a longsleeve shirt, and the shedding would have been hardly noticeable. Also, why didn't your dumb self, use a little oil on your skin. We are not dummies. Even if you do have psoriasis, a little oil will mask the shedding for some period of time.

Additionally, STOP COMPARING YOUR SITUATION TO THAT OF A "MINORITY". Your dumb ass will NEVER know what it's like, to NOT be white, in european controlled, and dominated america.

Address the letter to Bobby Baldwin, and cc: it to Doug Dalton.

Hi Hawk- Lee's advice is excellent. See you again, I hope. Babe

What does "European controlled" America mean? What does it have to do with some guy dripping skin on the table?


I'm sure the man oppresses you, but everyone's equal at the poker table.

just wants attention. i threw him a bone now watch the mad dog chew on it.

The letter will be in the post tomorrow morning.


Thanks for the advice.


Keith.

How much exactly do you want to bet?


I haven't worn a short sleeved shirt since I contracted this condition. I am too embarressed.


At dictionary.com I found this definition of discrimination:


"Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice"


I think that pretty much sums up how I was treated.

"Finally, from what I know about endocrinology and brain physiology, chances are you are a VERY good poker player, and that is reason enough to throw you out"


Actually the endocrine system is not at relevant as you think. You must stop thinking about it so much. Shift your thoughts to intercellular communication alone.

Hawk,


I do think you were wronged at Bellagio, but I would be careful to not use the words "discrimination" or espessionally "oppression," in your future contacts to get back in. If your goal is to play poker there, fine. Keep that the focus.


"Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice"


I wouldn't hold this definition of discrimination too dear, for the sake of your cause, since it means that senior discounts and wheelchair ramps are treatments as equally discriminatory as your episode at Bellagio.


Sometimes I pretend that I'm getting a feel for what it must be like, being a minority, because so often I'm the lone white guy at the table. Now and then it'll be a non-white dealer and a non-white floorman too, and a ruling will go against me, and you know what? It's all bullshit, it's pretend. If you're male, and white, and living in the USA, don't talk to me about discrimination, the bad kind. We don't know, and we can't know.


::: climbing down from soapbox :::


My point is that if you want to play poker at Bellagio again, it should be an easy matter to get back in, without putting people's jobs in jeopardy, and without putting any managers into political panic. If those things happen, it can only be because you wanted it. And if that happens, wouldn't you then be discriminating against managers who are dumb enough to bar a player for having a non-contageous disease?


Mistakes happen. My advice is to forgive.


Tommy

i think this is good advice Tommy. The guy obviously made a mistake, but it is over with. I am sure that if someone talked to the manager now when he is not pressed for a quick decision he would regret the incident. A letter should definitely be sent with an explanation as to what happened. But as you point out there is a big difference between this situation and "discrimination" in the sense that the word is used nowadays.


One thing i disagree with you on is that white men cant know the same discrimination. ask the irish people in the early 1900's who tried to get jobs when places would post signs that said "Irish need not apply." Also there is significant discrimination against white males, it is just that society has deemed that this is an appropriate response to redress past discrimination. This is a fact and i am NOT taking a position on the merits of this logic, I am just stating a fact. It may be different in degree but not in kind. As with most things in life it is all in how you deal with it.


Pat

The only thing I want is to get back into the Bellagio.


All the politically correct bit I can forget.


Yes, I was hurt. (Being labelled a public health nuisance isn't nice)


I am not after the blood of the guy who barred me.


I just want to play poker.


Keith

"There is significant discrimination against white males"


Bah.


This is absolutely ridiculous. I assume you refer primarily to Affirmative Action, and I tell you that for every job I lose because of AA, there are ten that I get because I'm white. People still hire people who are like them. And the people who do the hiring and decision making in corporate America are still predominately white males.


Being: 1. White and; 2. Male is worth tens of thousands of dollars over the course of a carreer in this country.

"One thing i disagree with you on is that white men cant know the same discrimination. ask the irish people in the early 1900's ..."


I was talking present tense, in the USA. Obviously there have been entire populations of white men enslaved in some form or another if you go back far enough and wide enough.


"Also there is significant discrimination against white males, it is just that society has deemed that this is an appropriate response to redress past discrimination."


Spoken like a true white guy.


Tommy

"Spoken like a true white guy."


With all due respect (which is a lot), this is not an arguement. It is an insult and a cop out. Your loaded language is irrefutable because it has no concrete axoimatic basis and is thus just makes someone you disagree with look foolish. I doubt it was intended exactly this way, but these sorts of "that which is not politically correct is wrong to discuss because it is not politically correct" arguements are often a hinderance in the advacement of race relations and always hinder the free expression of ideas.

A lot of white people use black people kind of like a little kid uses a doorframe.


The show how big they have grown by speaking about black people in patronizing terms.


Screw black people.


eLROY

hawk--I wish you the best of luck. Their actions were ridiculous as your condition is not rare by any means. I am sure that once you talk to them again they will see their error and apologize. If not we can fill the room with 2+2ers and just fold to the blinds every hand so they never make any rake...we'll call it a "rock-in" /images/smile.gif.

I'm not sure where I come down on this one. First, let me admit that last week I yelled at a guy at my table for coughing all night. I felt it was very inconsiderate of him to come and play poker when he was sick. He was exposing all of us to whatever he had, and I was sitting right next to him. Maybe I overreacted, but I was taking a two day motorcycle trip the next day, and then I had major dental work when I got home. I really didn't want to get sick.


Keith's case is a little different. No health risk, just unsightly. His description of a little skin is most likely an understatement, since other players noticed it and the manager thought it was serious enough to tell him to leave (who was the manager, btw?).


So how far do we take this? Do we allow someone to drool in front of us all night because he can't control it? Runny nose? Severe flatulence? Tourette syndrome? You get the idea. Where does our need for comfort override another's desire to play?


Keith, since you live with this condition, it might not bother you as much as others. Are you sure you have done everything you can to mitigate its effects?

The last time I played at Garden City, they still had those sticky green lumps that fit 21 in a slot.


That's actually where I learned to declare, because their chips stuck together so much I was always getting accused of string bets and such.


I'd snort Hawk's flakes like cocaine, before I'd eat french fries after handling those goo-covered obscenities.


eLROY

it may be spoken like a white guy, but the fact is that it is true and i note that you do not refute it.


Pat

is this a joke? i sure hope so.


Pat

Are you saying someone's supposed to go around being "black" and I'm supposed to care?


I really don't give a hang about black people.


eLROY

Fact of the matter is, in my lifetime I have never felt discriminated against because I was a white male. You give me one good example of that happening, and I'll give you dozens where the reverse is true. I agree that we are sometimes oversensitive because of past (and current) discriminations of minorities, but to say that there is "significant discrimination against white males" is totally off base. If there is any discrimination, it is more than off set by the favoritism, intentional or not, that we usually take for granted.

I agree. I'm sure Tommy's point was well intended, but it came across as a passive-aggressive dig. Also, I believe the idea that a white man cannot appreciate at all the experience of discrimination experienced by a non-white man is logically flawed. It is, instead, a matter of degree. No person can *fully* grasp the experience of another, simply because they are separate people living separate existences. However, one person, if capable of some empathy, can generally appreciate, to some variable extent, the experience of another, as communicated by that other. That is the whole basis of empathy, of communication, and so on.


If a white man cannot understand discrimination at all, then why even bother with attempts at compassion? We bother because we can understand, if only to a limited extent.


Of course some white men will better appreciate the experience of a non-white man in this society better than others. Having lived through oppressive experiences (growing up abused, for example), or having more fully developed capacities for empathy would be examples of influences here.

Glenn,


You're right. "Spoken like a true white guy" was an insult (sorry Pat!) and a cop out.


"that which is not politically correct is wrong to discuss because it is not politically correct"


I'm all for discussing anything, especially political correctness itself. So happens one of the joys of moving from the midwest to the northern left coast was freer speech for a surprise reason. Back in Ohio, with bigotry seamlessly woven into the social fabric, if one wanted to stay well clear of the bigot brand, and still discuss racial issues, it was necessary to be even MORE politically correct than in California. That's because here on the peninsula, the assumption is a lack of bigotry, allowing for more candid, less burdened, exchanges.


Tommy

"Also there is significant discrimination against white males ... "


You're right that I can't even begin to refute this, in the same way that I can't refute that there are invisible dragons on the moon.


(I'm copping out again! Make it stop!)


Tommy

"Back in Ohio, with bigotry seamlessly woven into the social fabric, if one wanted to stay well clear of the bigot brand, and still discuss racial issues, it was necessary to be even MORE politically correct than in California."


Agree 100%. I am from New Jersey (the part by NYC) and now live in Ohio. It is an amazing phenomenon which is hard to explain to anyone who hasn't seen it. Can't wait to move...

You don't send the letter to Bobby Baldwin.


The reason for this is that top casino executives often view poker as something they don't really need and from which they get far more complaints than is worth. I know that Baldwin views poker a little differently from most casino executives, but that is still no reason to send it to him.


The letter should go to Doug Daltaon, and only Doug Dalton. Make sure you include your phone number as well. I suspect he will straighten this problem out.


Best wishes,

Mason

'"Also there is significant discrimination against white males, it is just that society has deemed that this is an appropriate response to redress past discrimination."


Spoken like a true white guy'


totally unfair argument, and you know it.

i get what you are saying. but, man, can't you think for a second and realize that some of hte stuff you say is ALMOST CERTAIN to be mistaken in totally the wrong way? seriously man...

i don't think that white/black discrimination can 'offset' black/white discrimination. both are bad, and have no place in an 'ideal' world.

If you're male, and white, and living in the USA, don't talk to me about discrimination, the bad kind. We don't know, and we can't know.


Just so.


Discrimination is perhaps the right "technical" term, but unfortunately, we've created a need for a word that describes a systemic refusal to grant equal rights to a large subset of our population. Over the years, we've settled on "discrimination" for that.


I am not condoning the Bellagio's refusal play poker (as I stated above) and I hope you'll correct that. But you can probably correct it with a single well-written business letter.


Now compare that to the fact that if you're not a white male, you have essentially zero chance of (e.g.) being the President. Or that if you're the wrong race, you stand a much better chance of being pulled over by a cop while you're driving down the street. There is no comparison. I think that was Tommy's point and it was, as usual, a key one.


Regards, Lee

I am not American.


But do you not agree handicapped people are discrimated against too?


And fat people.


And ugly people.


And women.


etc etc etc.


Discrimination is not just about the colour of your skin.

Yeah, there's all kinds of discrimination. But there are degrees. And the kind of discrimination perpetrated against non-whites in this country pretty much pegs the meter. Women are in second place - we could argue about just exactly how bad it is.


I think the discrimination against handicapped folks is more a matter of omission (not building wheelchair ramps) than it is one of commission (lynchings, poll taxes, slavery).


If I read Tommy's point correctly, it's that the scale of the thing is so different that it's best not to use the same word to describe them both.


Regards, Lee

Many words gain much more emotional/political meaning than the original intent of the word or the dictionary definition. Discrimination is such a word. It is a very "loaded word" and race almost always comes to mine.


"thehawk" was mistreated by the Bellagio management. (according to Webster: to treat badly: abuse.


Of course this solves nothing; Semantics rarely will.


-Zeno

They have no right banning you from the poker room for that. Wow Hire an attorney --any attorney would take that case on a contingency basis which means you dont have to give them any money unless they win!!!


Go for the gusto maybe youll never have to play with your own money again.


Good luck

i am an attorney, and i can tell you that you will be completely wasting your time if you brought a lawsuit. even thinking about it is a waste of time.


Pat

Mason,


Good point. Former poker room manager Dan Sullivan in a long ago post on RGP stressed that he thought it was essential for the survival of his poker room to keep it invisible to upper management.


You can search for Dan's posts on RGP using Google. Just enter pkrmgr@lnett.com under author in Google's Advanced Group Search. They are well worth reading IMO.


Regards,


Rick

I think you should have complained to higher management at the bellagio, even if it did no good. Terrible decision by the manager - boo hiss.


Pokerbabe rules! If she said "jump," I'd say "how high?"


Dave in Cali