Big draw- how bad did I play it?

[KHALI]

I appreciate any feedback on this hand. I am a newbie so I am always looking to improve so be harsh if you must. Did I play it poorly(weak) or is it just a case of other guys making worse calls and getting lucky?
Of course in retrospect I realized my flush draw was dead but I actually thought about it for a second but then didn't worry about it too much.

> Game #519119070 (Level I, Game #9) - 5/10 No Limit Texas Hold'em -
2004/06/10-19:31:58 (CST)
> Table "Onotoa" ($10 tournament) -- Seat 4 is the button
> Seat 1: nobody (180.00 in chips)
> Seat 2: Khali (960.00 in chips)
> Seat 3: nobody (1,060.00 in chips)
> Seat 4: nobody (535.00 in chips)
> Seat 5: smallblind (1,155.00 in chips)
> Seat 6: bigblind (860.00 in chips)
> Seat 7: UTG (1,155.00 in chips)
> Seat 8: UTG+1 (2,050.00 in chips)
> Seat 9: UTG+2 (995.00 in chips)
> Seat 10: MID (1,050.00 in chips)
> smallblind: Post Small Blind (5)
> bigblind: Post Big Blind (10)
> Dealing...
> Dealt to Khali127 [ Qs ]
> Dealt to Khali127 [ Ks ]
>UTG+1 : Call (10)
>MID : Call (10)
> Khali127: Raise (50)
> UTG+1 : Call (40)
> MID : Call (40)
> *** FLOP *** : [ 7s Tc Js ]
> UTG+1 : Bet (10)
> MID : Call (10)
> Khali127: Raise (90)
> UTG+1 : Call (80)
> MID : Call (80)
> *** TURN *** : [ 7s Tc Js ] [ Jh ]
> UTG+1 : Check
> MID : Bet (50)
> Khali127: Call (50)
> UTG+1 : Call (50)
> *** RIVER *** : [ 7s Tc Js Jh ] [ 7h ]
> UTG+1 : Check
> MID : Check
> Khali: Check
> *** SUMMARY ***
> Pot: 585 | Board: [ 7s Tc Js Jh 7h ]
> Khali lost 190 [ Qs Ks ] (two pair, jacks and sevens)
> UTG+1 lost 190 (showed hand) [ As 8s ] (two pair, jacks and sevens)
> MID bet 190, collected 585, net +395 (showed hand) [ Th 9s ] (two
pair, jacks and tens)

Thanks for your thoughts.

[La Brujita]

Hey there,

Preflop I have mixed feelings about the raise. I usually limp after limpers but I have a suspicion your play might be better. The reason I limp is I don't mind a volume pot and I don't want to be reraised and forced to lay down my hand.

For me your big mistake is on the flop. You can't ask for many bigger flops than you got and I think you needed to make a pot sized raise.

Turn and river are tough decisions. The turn card is not great at all. I might have bluffed at the river just because the checks show some weakness depending on how likely I thought two folds would be. Again don't know if that is a great play there.

This hand illustrates how tough it can be to play a big draw when a blank hits the turn. At least you weren't playing it completely out of position.

[gergery]

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[gergery]

I like the preflop raise...always better to be aggressive and pot size pot helps drive others out. Only concern is that in early rounds of low-level tourneys with lots of fish you will get callers.

Flop. You are huge favorite over them with straight/flush draw with overcards. Something like 2:1 and 6:5 favorite vs. them. Your raising 80 is too weak, at only half pot size when they've already said they like their hand -- I'd expect a call. i like a big bet here, but expect that your variance will go up as will EV

Turn. Call is fine as you have odds to stay, are not a favorite with one card to go, and the pot is big enough that they probably wont fold.

River correct as they are very likely to call at this point and you have nothing.

> *** FLOP *** : [ 7s Tc Js ]
> UTG+1 : Bet (10)
> MID : Call (10)
> Khali127: Raise (90)
> UTG+1 : Call (80)
> MID : Call (80)
> *** TURN *** : [ 7s Tc Js ] [ Jh ]
> UTG+1 : Check
> MID : Bet (50)
> Khali127: Call (50)
> UTG+1 : Call (50)
> *** RIVER *** : [ 7s Tc Js Jh ] [ 7h ]
> UTG+1 : Check
> MID : Check
> Khali: Check
> *** SUMMARY ***
> Pot: 585 | Board: [ 7s Tc Js Jh 7h ]
> Khali lost 190 [ Qs Ks ] (two pair, jacks and sevens)
> UTG+1 lost 190 (showed hand) [ As 8s ] (two pair, jacks and sevens)
> MID bet 190, collected 585, net +395 (showed hand) [ Th 9s ] (two
pair, jacks and tens)

Thanks for your thoughts.

[/ QUOTE ]

[KHALI]

I agree with both of your comments. I like the preflop raise but I think my flop play was weak as was my turn call. To be honest his turn bet surpised me but in retrospect it was obviously a feeler as it was weak. LaBrujita you said turn was a blank but would you have raised here as you represented a big card with the flop raise? or is just calling fine based on the math? I didn't bet the river because these guys had both called down a hand already in this tourney with less than premium hands.

Thanks for your comments.

[patrick dicaprio]

1. I rarely raise with this hand and certainly wouldnt do it here with these low blinds. you wont steal and you dont want to knock anyone out. if you get called by a hand like A9s or something and you are heads up that is not a good situation.

2.i think the raise on the flop is OK but you shoudl not automatically raise here as many players will do. the reason is that against a good player with a good hand who suspects you are on a draw you will have to call a big bet on the turn.

Pat

[La Brujita]

[ QUOTE ]
LaBrujita you said turn was a blank but would you have raised here as you represented a big card with the flop raise? or is just calling fine based on the math?

[/ QUOTE ]

Khali,

The truth is 90-95% of hands or so posted I know what I would do because I have a blueprint of what I think is the right play in my head. That doesn't mean what I would do is correct, far from it, just that I know what I think is the correct play.

This hand is extremely tricky in my mind and is a 5%'er if that makes sense. I think I sidestepped the turn play for that reason. Here are some thoughts (which are not by any means definitive):

1. You are the one who has shown aggression preflop and on the flop. Your turn call really makes it look like you are on a draw of some sort. This makes it hard to be aggressive on the river if a blank hits.

2. MID called a minimum bet of 10 on the flop. Would he do that with top pair? Not sure either way but that is an odd play. He now comes out betting 50 into a pot of roughly 500. That is a very odd bet. I hate these post oak type bets but I take this one for weakness when looking back at preflop and flop play.

3. One point that favors a call is that now that the turn has paired you are drawing dead against a full house. Flat calls on the flop sometime mean flopped sets (although slow playing a set on this flop would be a mistake imo). Getting your money in with zero potential for return is something to be avoided but seeing monsters under every bed is something else to be avoided entirely and this hand doesn't smell like a flopped set to me.

4. Given that I am kind of thinking a turn raise is best. That being said if I am in your shoes I am (probably) calling. I just hate calling because it takes control of the hand from you.

Good idea not to the bluff the river against calling stations.

Edit to say one other thing I forgot to mention in my original post is a bigger raise on the flop may knock out a hand like AQ or AK which are gutshot straight draws and which might clean up some of your K and Q outs.