$20-$40 Fast Play

I hate when I play scared poker, but my opponent had me red lined on this hand and beyond my comfort zone.


One of the best players around (an incredibly good card/people reader) raised 4 off the button in an 8-handed game. It was folded to me and I called in the bb with 99.


The flop came Th,9d,2h.


I bet, he raised, and I re-raised. I thought if I could get him to mis-read my hand I might be able to get excessive action. (it turns out I got more than I bargained for)


He re-raised again. We were heads-up with no limit on raising. I considered raising again, but this would almost eliminate a draw for me. I thought he'd have to put me on a set or AA which does me little good if he has KK,QQ, etc. so I just called hoping to get in 3 bets on the turn. (good or bad thinking?)


The turn was the 2c.


I bet, he raised, I re-raised, he re-raised.


What am I supposed to put him on?? I thought my play so far was consistent with AA. This guy thinks about 20 levels beyond me. Would he 4 bet with Ah,Kh (or for that matter Ah,A?) and try to move me off AA? I'm normally pretty slow to put someone on a set (especially when I'm holding one), but I mean the man just made it $160... If I made it $200 he's good enough to fold just about anything that doesn't have me beat. I just called. (Too wimpy?)


The river was an 8h.


I bet thinking if he did make a flush he might raise, but this can't be good thinking. He couldn't possibly raise a flush after I called his 4th bet on the turn and lead the river. If I thought he could have hearts, I should've check/raised, right? He might even bet two-pair (AA) after I check, thinking I couldn't possibly be checking a full. I just didn't want to get re-raised yet again, and be shown TT.


He called and you can probably gather from the texture of my post that my 9's full were good which leads me to one last question: What the HECK did he have??? Do I garner all this action just by having a weak/tight game? Thanks in advance for any comments.

If you stop polishing Mike D's knob, you might have a chance of beating him.

What did he have? Well, if he is as good as you say, he could only have had AA, KK, or TT. Maybe AhKh, ATs, or T9s but I seriously doubt it.


Calling on the flop is fine so that you can get into a raising war when the bets are bigger.


On the turn, you've got the third-nut hand. The nuts is 22 but it's highly unlikely he raised pre-flop with this. The second-nut is TT and that is a serious possibility for him to hold. So how far do you go with the second-nut hand when it's still possible for you to be outdrawn on the river (if he has AA, an A could come on the river)? Probably just as far as you took it-- to the edge of your comfort zone. But perhaps your comfort zone is not big enough for the stakes. It's something to consider.


If you have a weak/tight image, then he may have been trying to run over you.

Actually if you have a weak tight image you would get significantly less action. I think you ran into a situation where one guy simply overplayed his hand and you overestimated his ability to read hands and players. One thing that comes to mind is that maybe he got some "read" that you were slowplaying before the flop with a big pair. If he is one of those guys who gets an initial opinion then sticks with it no matter what the action is then I can see what happened. He's probably thinking to himself, that you have either KK,QQ,or JJ, and that he is gonna pound you with his Aces.

Kevin,


I think you played the hand fine. I would have to agree with Goat that he probably had AA and overplayed his hand by putting you on KK or something similar. He may have even put you on 910 suited and thought the 2 pairing the board on the turn counterfitted you and his Aces up were good. Either way, I think you made about the maximum you could here, with the possible exception of putting in another raise on the turn. You commented that you believe he could lay down on the turn if you make this raise if he does not have you beat. I would have to disagree with you based soley on the fact that he now has 7 big bets invested and pretty much has little choice but to finish the hand out.


Well Done.


Just some thoughts...


Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)

Did you ever put him on flopping a set of 10's?

"But perhaps your comfort zone is not big enough for the stakes. It's something to consider. "


Thanks Dynasty- So I take it you play back once more on the turn? btw- I didn't mean comfort zone as in stakes, but how much I still liked my hand. I'd have probably played it the same way at 3-$6.

"Actually if you have a weak tight image you would get significantly less action."


What if he had say Qh,Jh and thought I might fold an overpair for 4 bets on the turn?


You make a really good point about fixating on his first read too rigidly. This is very possible, but I have to think I got lucky and caught him out of line with a two in his hand...

Thanks Mike-


But wouldn't he have realized that I also see the second deuce just counterfeited my hand if I held T9? What good would 3-betting the turn with T9 do for me?


Also, do you really think he's pot committed with AA if I make it 5 bets? There'd be 15 big bets in the pot and it's almost certain I've got at least a full. He doesn't figure to make an additional 7 more big bets even when he does go on to hit his 2-outer... Would you have called and payed off with AA?

"Did you ever put him on flopping a set of 10's?"


It definitely crossed my mind after he made it 4 bets on the turn. The question is was I too weak by not making it 5 bets?

Thanks Rounder-


Like I said in an above post, he would have realized that I wouldn't have liked the two on the turn with T9, so why go to 4 bets on the turn? Oh well, there's no doubt I got lucky somewhere in this hand.. Take care.

With all the $$ I've given him over the years he should be polishing my knob. The guy's gonna retire at least 10 years earlier just because of me...

Mike-


I've got to think I was lucky enough to catch him out of line with a two in his hand.

It's probably very unlikely he would try to get you to fold after you already showed such power by 3 betting on the turn. He should know that there is about a 0% chance of a play like that working. If you are percieved as weak tight and the guy knew how to read, then he would have been the one folding.

Kevin:


It has been my observation that only a very few players will make it four bets on the turn or the river without the nuts. Therefore, not making it five bets on the turn seems entirely appropriate.


Frank Donnelly

I'm not trying to give you a hard time goat, but I find this an interesting aspect of the hand. It wouldn't be all that unlikely for me to 3-bet the turn with AA. If/when I did, I certainly wouldn't ALWAYS fold to 4 bets, but I'd have to at least consider it. So I'm not sure about your comment of there being a 0% chance of a play like this succeeding. I'd only have to call often enough to ensure this becomes an unprofitable play for him in the long run.

I don't think you have your definitions right. If you are truly weak tight, you do not three-bet unless you have the absolute nuts or 2nd nuts especially for a turn bet. If you are weak-tight, when you are raised on the turn, you immediately seek out the best hands, most likely assuming a good chance he has two tens. You call the turn and river at this point. You are describing tight- aggressive play.

Maybe what I should've said was weak/tight *image*. Of course I don't consider myself weak/tight and the majority of players I play with probably don't either. But I suspect that the VERY best players view me as slightly weak/tight or at least not very adept at reading and counter-reading. I'll try to use this to my advantage when against these players. I'm not sure if I succeeded with this hand or not.. I appreciate your input.

yeah, you are right, 0% is an exaggeration, but I think the play is too rare to consider into the equation, but that is my opinion, I might be wrong on this one. Afterall yuo have a lot better idea of what the guy is capable of doing and thinking :-)

Drew,


Kevin is definitely not weak tight - in fact he leans towards being over aggressive more often than weak tight. What Kevin does do though, is beat himself to death when he thinks he misses a bet. If I truly thought any profit actually came from him, I would tell him he misplayed a hand or that he missed a bet just to get him going. It is kind of funny to say something like this occasionally and see him take a walk, have a smoke, smash his head against the wall, talk to the plant in the corner, etc.


The fact that he does continually evaluate his play though is why he is an extremely tough player and getting better all the time. If I am not mistaken, he is working on his reading skills more and more - is this true Kevin?


In regards to this hand against this particular opponent, I can assure the forum that there is absolute ZERO profit to be realized against the opponent Kevin was up against this hand. Anyone who has played against him for any length of time that actually has a clue as to what is going on avoid him like the plague when in a game. He gives nothing away and refuses to lose and will get the chips over the long haul.


I just felt it necessary to add this comment because this truly demonstrates how well Kevin played this hand (although I think you should have re-raised the turn!) /images/smile.gif


Job well done Kevin.


Just some thoughts...


Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)

Kev


He had AA's.He raised pre-flop and then went to war on the flop and turn. He put you on KK's and when the deuce came he was very happy. Your re-raise on the flop got him bacuase i don't believe he would have thought you play a set like that.By playing the flop the way you did you made a bunch of extra money well done.

Sorry he probably put you on top two pair as you just called his raise pre-flop.Or possibly an overpair such as the KK's.

Mike-


Thanks for the input. I guess I do beat myself up at times, but I just like to go over every hand I play and determine if there was a better way to play it. This is why I can't play as many hands as some of you guys. It would overload and fry out my brain and I'd have to spend the rest of my days in a padded room.


btw- me and the plant are now on a first name basis :>)

Thanks for ringing in Lar-


I still don't believe he had AA (I e-mailed you but not sure if it went through). He must've had a deuce in his hand. Going 4 bets on the turn with AA when it's heads-up with unlimited raising knowing that I know the deuce hurt me against AA, doesn't seem a good idea. Since he's an exceptional player, I have to think he was stronger than AA.

Kev


I don't believe he would play a deuce that way.He's going to raise pre-flop with a deuce!What hand could he raise pre-flop and then go to war on the flop?A deuce with an overcard? A deuce with a rag?I don't believe he would ever play his hand that way on the flop,do you?The only possible hand is AA's and when that deuce paired he felt he had the best hand catching you with an overpair or possibly top two pair on the flop.Doesn't his raise pre-flop 4 off the button tip you off.


I'll say it again. The way you played your hand pre-flop caused him to miread your hand and you made a ton of bets that you would not have made if you slowplayed the flop and bet/checkraise the turn. When you play against good players you have to do something that that will force them to misread your hand especially head up. Well done. Lar