Suited in BB

Without getting into how well your opp.'s play,

at what point(# of players) does it approx. become correct

to defend your BB with bad suited cards (72x, T2x)


I would guess that it is very close to correct against

1 opp on a steal.


Is it close for 2 opponents?

Definite for 3?

Depends a lot on blind structure IMO

eg - in a 2 and 3 chip blind structure, It's easier to get 14 - 1 on a BB ATS (Any Two Suited) call.

I like to get 14 - 1 with hands like you describe. The implied odds are great enough to make this kind of hand playable I think.

I've always had some question marks on this subject my self though and welcome all comments too:)

If you are talking about defending against a raise, then you should fold these lousy suited cards every time. Remember that the value of being suited is more important multiway then heads up so if you were to call, then you would be making less of a mistake when its multiway. Also another problem is that when you are heads up, having a 2 or a 3 in your hand is not good (although defending with something like A2suited is sometimes correct). So anyway, garbage hands like 10rag suited or 7rag suited are garbage and should be thrown away just about every time. I guess they would be playable if UTG raised and almost everybody called- but how often does that happen?

Although I dont know the answer, I would have to disagree.


In a 20-40 game:

If I were on the button and was

facing a raise and 2 opps, I would rather

have 72x than AT off...


I would SPECULATE that the AT would be worth about

-$25.00 to -$30.00 per hand, and the 72x -$18.00 per hand..


IF this were the case then defending your blind with 72x

would be correct.


Another factor which I really didnt want to get into is

that suited hands go down in value in very aggressive

games...small pairs go up.


(I did a lot of simulations in the past, unforunately

they were outside the blinds, and the work is lost anyways).


Im sure MM & DS have a good feel for this sort of situation.


Any more input would be appreciated.

Well you can disagree all you want, but you're wrong. AT is a crappy hand too, BUT it is a hell of a lot better then 72s in a pot with 2 opponents. Actually AT is a decent hand when the button raises and a weak player calls in the small blind. If you want to defend your blind with that suited stuff be my guest. Once again being suited is more valuable in MULTIWAY POTS. Now you bring up pairs in your response to my first post......well pairs are a different matter- in general all you need is two opponents to make a pair worth playing, but there is no comparison to a pair and rag-rag suited when the pot is short handed. Part of the reason is that flopping a set is so well disguised but flush cards often freeze up opponents. Anyway I don't know where you get those dollar values, but computer simulations often aren't applicable to real world poker.

The times it would be correct to play rag-rag suited are:

1. When you get a free play (obviously)

2. When you are in a multiway pot and only have to call a fraction of the bet because you are in the SB already.

3. Anytime you are in a SB where it only costs 1/3 of a bet to enter and you don't fear a raise from the BB.

I apologise - I thought you were talking about unraised pots.

IMO your discussion is moot in relation to raised pots - you should fold garbage hands like these every time.

Unless you are in my game then by all means go ahead and play 72x

if the computer simulations tell you that they only lose $18 per play then that must be OK. - lol.

Yegads! I speculate that I don't want to lose either $18 or $25-30 out of position with garbage. I think you are comparing apples to oranges when you compare calling a raise from the button to calling a raise from the big blind. Essentially, you are comparing position to pot odds, which just doen't seem to make a lot of sense.

I think that in any position Apples are apples, oranges are oranges and garbage is still garbage.

If I was in the BB with 82x facing a raise and 6 callers I would never play - just as I would never play this the same hand on the button facing a raise and 6 callers.

On a very basic level calling raises with garbage is poor poker IMO and this applies to almost all situations. Now if I happen to be a world class player with a monster bankroll who is playing against a bunch a complete dolts then I might think about playing suited garbage from the blinds for a raise but the original post I think said not to take into account the opponents.

I think Dirty Harry said it best in Magnum Force -"A mans gotta know know his limitations."

I'm just not good enough to play these kind of hands - anyone here up to the task?

I agree to fold, only because I don't trust the simulation. You are missing the point with the $18 loss. If that was the case, it is still better that folding which is a $20 loss. $2 is 40 minutes of long distance calls with 1800COLLECT.

GO AHEAD MAKE MY DAY!

Yes...Losing $18.00 is slightly better than

folding and losing $20.00

The money in the big blind isn't yours. Thats in the pot. Take that away and your callng a raise with 27 out of position and tell me thats a good play?

Drew,


That's if the sims were correct. Which I doubt very seriously if it says to defend a raise with 27 out of position. Its fish talk. I'm not buying it. Noway is defending with 27 a good play. Imo. If this were the case is there any hand to throw away in the bb? Should you defend every bb always? You'll probably say A10 off because its dominated. Against how many players is this a good call?

And even if those sims were correct that it loses $18 on the button doesn't mean that what it would lose in the bb probably more because your out of position.

From a pure hand value perspective, if you fold

you lose $20.00.


If you call and lose less then $20.00 (yes $18.00 is less),

then you have played the hand optimally.


I have posted before that sims have there weaknesses, however

having said that, they do in my opinion have some merit

to starting hand play.


If they didn't, then I wouldn't be able to reproduce S&M's

hand rankings nearly identically which is easy to do.

(You can also mimick plays, like steal raises in the bb quite well if you know what you are doing,

and the way I see all the profiles play equally bad post

flop,therefore they give a pretty accurate picture of

hand values preflop).


Anyways, now let me just say I have been running some simulations

in the big blind since my original post.


I can say that I was definitely wrong about defending bb from

a steal raise with any 2 suited cards...Especially

if they contain a 2 or 3 and do not have a good chance for

making a str...like (8,2) (7,3) ...Even (T,4) (J,5)

were losers.


Against a real raise;1 opp. you would have to raise your

standards 2 or 3 notches..


Against 3 opps, the results were very similiar to that

of 1 opp steal...that surprised me.


I have yet to run a sim against 5 opps..But I can say that

if a hand like 92x was playable, it would probably be break

even at best...

Yes, but you said it was worth -$18 on the button for a raise. Which I don't know if thats accurate or not, but even if it was, its probably a bigger loser out of position.

The -$18.00 was just speculation, if you read my previous

post..Not an actual sim result.


I still think think im right that it's worth more than

AT off..But I was probably wrong on my guess that it's

only -$18.00...There both obviously big losers.


And I understand your point about position.