15-30 hand

1sr orbit, but I'm pretty familiar with the players. 1 fish who thinks he plays well, one loose aggressive, borderline maniac, two loose preflop players who play decently after the flop, and two who I don't know. Also, two empty seats.


I open raise with AQ suited, third to act. Borderline maniac (BM) three bets and it's heads up (cap?). Flop comes 843 rainbow with one of my suits.


I check and call. I debated raising, but I don't think I'll get him out here.


Turn comes K of the fourth suit.


I check, he bets, I raise.


He folds!!


I figured he'd call, but I also thought there was a very good chance I was ahead. I would have raised almost anything that fell here, but I loved the king.


comments please.

"I figured he'd call, but I also thought there was a very good chance I was ahead. I would have raised almost anything that fell here, but I loved the king. "


Were there any adults in this game?


Vince

"Were there any adults in this game?"


uh, gee, no. we were playing for 15 marbles and thirty marbles. What kind of question is that?

2d,


If you figured that he'd call, why would you raise? I find it's best, for me, to play maniacs fairly straight forwardly, torture them when I can, and let them bluff off their chips when it seems in order. If you don't play the "maniac's game" but play yours(if it works, not to imply that it doesn't) you will definately come out ahead in the long run. Let them win the small battles, you win the bigger ones. Winning poker's not about winning the most hands; it's about winning the most money. If(and when) the maniac is willing to call you down with some small pair, then how do you like it? He's then made a good call. Are you always going to be able to follow through on the river?


Now, if you had said, "I figured he'd fold..." that might be a different story.


JMHO,


Mike

but what if you (I) thought he'd call with a worse hand? I've seen him look people up with Q high before. I also have seen him check down small pocket pairs and under pairs while betting the hell out of high cards/bluffs. My raise was actually a value-ish raise, but I wasn't too disappointed that he folded.


Maybe I should say that there were two maniacs at the table?

Mike,


I was wondering how you would play this hand given the situation? Just curious how you deal with the maniac in this spot.

2d,


You said two maniacs, not me /images/smile.gif .


If I were you, I'd be thrilled that he mucked rather than not "too disappointed." I wasn't necessarily trying to say that this is a terrible play(or otherwise); if your opponent's image of you is that of a tough, solid player, this is not necessarily such a bad play on occasion(though I would prefer to have position on such a play in this case).


When you say that you have seen this player call with Q-high, I would suggest that you be aware of the situations in which this player might be willing to do this. Let's say that your maniac flops a Q-high flush draw on a flop of 3-4-5 and the blind bets the flop, turn and river, the maniac never raising (OK this may be unlikely but it's just hypothetical), the maniac calls all the way and decides to payoff on the river hoping that the blind is just betting a straight draw. Calling down with Q-high in a situation like this, is far less insane than calling down a preflop raiser who has check-raised the turn. I only mention this to make sure that you are paying attention to even the maniacs' play, they may be unpredictable, but most of them still have SOME patterns and to neglect to look for these patterns, is to neglect your own game.


I still think that you are risking a lot of money in a questionable spot. Again, I'd ask what you do on the river when he calls. If you check, he may bet any hand that has you beat and you may decide to pay him off; or he may bet a busted draw(whatever draw he thinks he had) and you may decide to fold. If you bet the river-- the maniac could bluff-raise you on the river--then what do you do; what if he calls you down with a small pair? Seems to me that you're risking 2-3 big bets in a questionable situation, with a weak hand, against an unpredictable player. Remember, those 2-3 big bets should represent a couple hours of work/play. Again, I personally prefer to risk those bets when I'm in a better spot.


Still-in-all, the play worked out for you, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but I would atleast caution you to not try this play too often because even most of the maniacs pay SOME attention to their opponents and they will be especially willing to play back at you, you won't like this when you're holding marginal hands. For the most part it's better to try and whip them into line with your better hands, trying to push weaker hands through against them can be very costly, or atleast increase your swings dramatically.


Good Luck,


Mike

pokerguy,


Oh, sure, put me on the spot /images/smile.gif . All right, I'll take a shot.


First of all, I'm gonna try to be on the other side of the maniac or, atleast, not have him directly to my left. But that's not the situation, so I'll try to respond as is.


This might sound like somewhat of a cop-out(please don't stop reading /images/wink.gif ) but "it depends." It depends on atleast what kind of maniac I'm dealing with(see my response to Mason's "hand to talk about" the A-Jh one) it depends on how this maniac plays against me and how I think he thinks I play against him. Since I play mostly in Chicago(though I'm going to Minn. tomorrow) I play against "regular" maniacs--I'm very familiar w/ them and vise versa.


OK, enough of that. No, I'm not likely to give this hand up weakly against such a player and I will probably mix up my play more in spot like this, but hopefully with lower risk while gaining more info(atleast sometimes...ideally). I might lead out on the flop, I might check-raise and lead the turn no matter what comes. If I lead out and get raised I'll probably call. If I'm called on the flop and turn, I may or may not bet the river, I may or may not call the river. If I have checked the turn, I may or may not call, with the intention of either check-calling the river or check-mucking. Some maniacs will bet and raise like crazy until the river and then check a fair hand when called, others will make a lot of value bets.


I almost want to go back and erase the above paragraph, and stick with my origional answer, which was "it depends." I personally don't like the check-raise on the turn given the way this hand was playing out, I think 2d opened himself up to a maximum loss in spots where he's trailing(please see my second response to him), though I can't say for sure that I would never make I similar play, but I would make this particular play very sparingly at most.


"It depends" might seem to some, an over-used and trite answer but you and I (and of course, most of the others in this forum) know how true it is.


Gotta go to bed soon (got a 7hr drive to Minnesota tomorrow, I'm going for about ten days) so if I don't respond to any other posts for a while, that's why.


See ya later,


Mike

What are you Roy Cooke or something with this "it depends" stuff or what? Just kidding.


I didn't mean to put you on the spot. The reason I asked is because I respect your play and was wondering how you handle maniacs out of position like this.


I agree that it depends and there are no set answers on how to handle a maniac in this spot. I will mix it up as well. Sometimes I 4 bet preflop if they freely reraise me and continue to bet until I meet resistence. Flop, turn, but will almost always check the river without improvement. Thats the only thig I really differ from your play. I think on the river if they called the turn will now call the river with a pair. Hoping you have AK or AQ. I don't think they will call on the river with a hand less than AQ. So its not a value bet. Sometimes check raise the flop, sometimes check raise the turn, but extremely rarely. Almost never for the reasons you point out. I will almost never fold the river. If i went past the turn i'm calling the river everytime against a maniac becuase it only costs me one bb. That added into the fact that he is maniac and will bluff a high percentage of the time make it very correct to call imo.


I hope I made some sense. Kinda not thinking about how to word things write now because i'm extremely tired. Have a good time in Minnesota. More importantly make some money. Good luck!

Pokerguy,


Thanks for the compliment. Same back at ya. Seems that our game's are pretty similar, though I'm probably slightly looser in some spots preflop and you're sometimes more aggressive in later position. I've definately been learnin' a few things from you guys.


I agree with your analysis, though I'm less apt to reraise preflop because I often won't with big pairs(my opponents should be aware of this, though I sometimes still give them too much credit) so that I can trap; headup I can usually pick up that extra small bet on the flop anyway, while sometimes appearing to overplay my hand and set up even more action. As always, there's more than one way to play any hand.


Now I really gotta try to go to sleep, I'm psyched about the trip, I hear Helmuth's supposed to be there so maybe I'll get to see how I measure up against him and some other "superstars" in ring games(yes, I've heard stories and even witnessed some, about ring games and "superstars"), since Minn. can't play bigger than 30-60; I've played bigger on occasion but not yet with a real good comfort level. Almost no holdem-only in Chicago, bigger than 20-40.


Good luck to you too,


Mike

BTW, if the flop comes K-high I might just check and fold.

Too weak?


Mike

"What kind of question is that? "


Well if you play poker against opponents that are as silly as the one you describe one has to wonder if he is old enough to get dressed by himself.


Vince

Mike,


Thanks back. I agree with your analysis of our playing styles. We play very similar. With the few exceptions preflop that you mentioned. As always your analysis is right on!


Don't worry about Phil. I think you'll find you play better than him in lives games. I don't that for sure because i have not play against him in live action. But i've heard he's a bit of a fish. He'll probably try to run you over every hand and you'll pick off his bluffs. Then he'll stare you down with a smirk on his face and say something like, how could you call me with that? Keep playing like that and I'm gonna bust you! That is if he even plays live because he rarely does that. Because he loses. He's a bit of an ego maniac but he's very entertaining to list too. I find watching him play more entertaining than anybody else becuase of his antics.


Anyway good luck out there!

Not necessarily. You are out of position with no pair. And with the king high usually being a bad flop for AQ I sometimes will as well. Either dump it now or hold your breath and take it to the river. I don't think you lose much by letting this hand go occasionally.

Your treading on very thin ice check-raising a maniac on fourth

street with Ace high. This would not be a routine play for me

and I would do this very sparingly.


Bruce