worst poker books of all time [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

MicroBob

06-10-2004, 10:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So sorry phil, i hope u made some cash off it, but it sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

why do you hope he made some cash off of it??
i hope he makes as little as possible off that book.

saying that it's a good manual for the beginning player is just plain wrong.

i have a new favorite player at Party. spotted on the NL-25 tables....his name is HellmuthHatr

someone asked him if he hates Hellmuth and why.
i was quick to help..."because he's soooo hateable"

Hellmuth's book really is the worst (although i am told that some of his non-holdem advice isn't so bad).
it just bugs me that he had the tenacity to write such a bad book while there are such good ideas in SuperSystem, 2+2 books....and even WLLHE by Lee Jones.

by the way....Mason's book Gambling Theory and Other Topics has a rather large section where he reviews an array of poker books on a 1-10 scale.
there are enough books in there that received ratings of 5 or lower to make it a fairly interesting read.
this was before Hellmuth's book though which i am guessing would have received a 2 or 3.

if you are truly interested in seeking out the worst poker-books ever than check out his essay in that book.
i can't find my copy at the moment (may have left it in my car) but if anyone else has it perhaps they could provide some of the Worst of the Worst.

deacsoft

06-10-2004, 11:35 PM

TRUE!!!!!

Ed Miller

06-11-2004, 12:43 AM

Does it have a chapter on all of his bad beats?

His next book is about his bad beats.

TXTiger

06-11-2004, 01:11 AM

"... and his book is great for someone who is a novice at hold 'em."

As long as this person who is new to holdem is not a friend of mine, then I agree. I'd like to buy a copy of the holdem chapters for every person I play against. I wonder how much impact his book has on the 15-30 game, since he is well known and many new players are playing in the game. Everytime I see someone play pocket fives like pocket aces I wonder if they are playing poker like the pros.

jumpthru

06-11-2004, 01:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Anything from the Ken Warren collection should be avoided like the plague.

Cup

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto. In his book I have he says "Look for tables with players with tatoos, cause people with tatoos usually suck at poker"

He honestly wrote that.

dirty moose

06-11-2004, 02:12 AM

ya know if we all wrote a book about bad beats, they would all be the same, everyone has their share of bad beats, there nothing special about his. he just happeens to be a little bitch about it

CardinalsFan

06-11-2004, 02:12 AM

you've got to be kiddin me!

Ed Miller

06-11-2004, 03:33 AM

you've got to be kiddin me!

If only I were... from Phil's website (http://www.philhellmuth.com/about.html):

[ QUOTE ]
My second poker related book, entitled "Bad Beats and Lucky Draws" (again with Harper/Collins) will be out in October, 2004.

[/ QUOTE ]

I expect him to sell AT LEAST nine copies within the first year...

Ed Miller

06-11-2004, 03:38 AM

Phil Hellmuth is an incredible poker player, and his book is great for someone who is a novice at hold 'em.

Phil would have ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE in the $15-$30 game at the Bellagio. Frankly, I'm not sure he could beat the $4-$8 game there. I am not exaggerating. If he can beat that $4-$8 game, he can do so for no more than maybe $4/hour.

That he feels he is authoritative enough to write a book about beating limit hold 'em cash games is absurd.

He is a strong no limit tournament player, but that does not an "incredible poker player" make...

The WET BEAVER

06-11-2004, 04:26 AM

Lou Krieger's books are a waste.

MicroBob

06-11-2004, 04:40 AM

agreed Ed. his limit hold-em strategy is flat-out bizarre.

here are some other books from Mason's GTAOT that he rated poorly on his 1-10 scale.
again, this was before Phil's book....which i am guessing would rate a 2 at best.

The Computer Guide to Hold-Em Poker (2) - by Robert Zahrobsky - This book is a good example of how a little knowledge can be dangerous. Zahrobsky says that 2 overcards on the flop that also provide and inside straight draw are marginal hands at best.

Eight or Better, High-Low Split, Seven Stud (1) - K.A. Coddington - If you want to lose your money fast, this is a good book to read.

Omaha Hi-lo Eight or Better (?) - K.A. Coddington - I haven't read the book yet, but i suspect that this text is of the same quality.

Hold-Em Poker for Winners (1) - Carl Anderson - Without a doubt, this is one of the worst books ever written on the game of poker. I found much of the book totally unintelligible and parts of the book just plain silly. The game situations that are described in this book are totally ridiculous.

Money Poker (1) - Mr. X as told to Walter Gibson - Definately one of the worst books ever written on poker. Mr. X has no idea of how the game is played. On the other hand, if I made four of a kind as often as he did, I wouldn't need to know how to play either.

Cappelletti on Omaha (3)

Programmed Poker (1) by Jim Glenn

Winning California Poker (1) Vern Albery - I find it very hard to believe that this book was written by a professional player.

How to win at stud poker (2) - James Wickstead - Contains almost no worthwhile information.

Poker: 101 Ways to Win (1) - Andy Nelson - Includes ideas like to only play the very best hands when on a losing streak, and (my favorite) when running bad, and you win a couple of pots and get close to even, cash out - don't fall into the trap of giving it back.

Winning Low Limit Holdem (4) - Lee Jones - His preflop play is too tight, he doesn't recognize the value of small pairs, and he frequently over rates unsuited medium cards. I can't read more than a few paragraphs without seeing osmething i disagree with. For instance, he points out that when you flop second or bottom pair you should check and fold because with "many opponents, at least one of them will have a top pair or better."

HoldEm Excellence (3) - Lou Krieger

Winners Guide to Texas Holdem Poker (2) - Ken Warren - Warren tells you that hold-em is mainly a "showdown game" but recommends some bluffing when the pots are big. He also seems to believe in cycles and contends that if you follow these cycles you can switch from playing high cards to low cards, and when on a rush - "the problem come in knowing when to stop pushing your luck." Warren also seems to be completely unaware of the size of the pot.

BreakEvenPlayer

06-11-2004, 07:26 AM

You're telling me that someone who has played winning professional poker for the past 30 years cannot beat the $15-$30 at the Bellagio? Phil got his start playing limit poker up in Wisconsin.

Ed, I really respect your posts but this seems an outlandish statement. It's just so easy to dislike Hellmuth that I think no one gives him credit.

I guess that's part of poker, part of life.

Chris Daddy Cool

06-11-2004, 07:42 AM

I was just watching Phil play the UB 25/50 NL game and I was not very impressed. For one, he seemed a little too loose in calling pf raises, aka calling a pot sized raise with A6s.

It was particulary funny when he got his aces cracked by J3s that hit a flush, where he ranted quite a bit.

sumdumguy

06-11-2004, 09:13 AM

post deleted

JTrout

06-11-2004, 10:15 AM

Although given a high rating by Mason,
Poker Farce and Poker Truth was not my cup of tea.

It's hard to bore me when talking about poker, but.....

pudley4

06-11-2004, 10:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You're telling me that someone who has played winning professional poker for the past 30 years cannot beat the $15-$30 at the Bellagio? Phil got his start playing limit poker up in Wisconsin.

Ed, I really respect your posts but this seems an outlandish statement. It's just so easy to dislike Hellmuth that I think no one gives him credit.

I guess that's part of poker, part of life.

[/ QUOTE ]

How can he have played winning professional poker for the past 30 years when he started playing in Madison in the mid 80s?

donkeyradish

06-11-2004, 11:07 AM

My first ever poker book was a Mike Caro one, in giant print. While the advice in it wasn't exactly wrong, it could all have been condensed onto one page and been just as useful.

I've also read Play Poker like the Pros. I thought it was an interesting read! But not exactly useful.

Phil's holdem advice includes something like play any pair in any position. (Actually there is one situation I do this, in the first round of a Mini-Tourney where the bets are low).

Sponger15SB

06-11-2004, 11:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I was just watching Phil play the UB 25/50 NL game and I was not very impressed. For one, he seemed a little too loose in calling pf raises, aka calling a pot sized raise with A6s.

[/ QUOTE ]

my guess is that phil is confident in his skills that he can beat everyone post flop, also, that he might be able to bully players around just on his image of a good poker player.

which he is, anyone who says he can't be the $15/30 at bellagio should be stripped of any "noted poker authority" title they have. Also, If phil were to show up at the bellagio i'm sure he could bring along his WSOP bracelet in limit hold em from 1992 and 1993 to show you.

Gewurtztraminer

06-11-2004, 11:42 AM

From Mason's Book Review Post that has been archived here (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=450677&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&fpart=1&vc=1) .

[ QUOTE ]
Play Poker Like the Pros (1 & 6) by Phil Hellmuth. This text covers most poker games played in major cardrooms. It includes three chapters on limit hold ’em strategy, and one strategy chapter each on no-limit and pot limit hold ’em, limit hold ’em tournaments, Omaha eight-or-better, pot-limit Omaha, seven-card stud, razz, and seven-card stud eight-or-better.

To accurately review the book, the three limit hold ’em strategy chapters need to be separated from the rest of the text. Simply put, this is some of the most bizarre advice I have ever read. Here we are told to cap the betting with hands like ace-queen and a pair of sevens, but “you might want to back off” if a timid player raises or reraises, to three bet with small pairs, always raise if first in with ace-little suited, and to usually call three bets out of either blind with queen-jack suited or jack-ten suited. The play on the flop and beyond is also incredibly aggressive. And, in my view, I don’t believe anyone can win in full ring games playing like this in the long run. However, on a given night, this maniac aggressive approach could produce a lot of chips if you run extremely lucky.

The rest of the book is actually quite different (and thus the dual rating). Now most of the advice is pretty reasonable, and I even thought the chapter on limit hold ’em tournaments was very good. But there were still some thoughts that I disagreed with. Two examples are to usually start with the best hand in seven-card stud and to call for two bets cold on fourth street in razz when you catch bad and your two opponents both catch good. (That’s because the pot will almost always be capped here. Also, Hellmuth does give some stud exceptions, but there are far more exceptions than he seems to realize.)

There are also two other problems with the book. The first is that virtually nothing is said about how to play in multiway pots. This may have something to do with the fact that large multiway pots, which are common in standard ring games, don’t develop very often in tournament play, and the author is mainly a tournament player. But it is still a major omission.

The second problem has to do with the book itself. Even though it is called Play Poker Like the Pros, almost all the material is at a beginner level. So despite the fact that the non-limit hold ’em material is okay, there is a lot more to playing these games than what appears here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I read it, and have reread some of the tourney sections.
Playing a limit ring game like he suggests.... not for me or my bankroll.

Gewürtztraminer

Stefan Prodan

06-11-2004, 12:37 PM

Err..I was under the impression there was only one WSOP, and that it's no-limit...are there other WSOPs?

Sponger15SB

06-11-2004, 12:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Err..I was under the impression there was only one WSOP, and that it's no-limit...are there other WSOPs?

[/ QUOTE ]

is this a joke? if so i'll bite.

http://www.pokerpages.com/tournament/schedule1339.htm

Chris Daddy Cool

06-11-2004, 01:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
my guess is that phil is confident in his skills that he can beat everyone post flop, also, that he might be able to bully players around just on his image of a good poker player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about that dude. Some of the UB 25/50 NL are pretty damn tough. I wouldn't be at all suprised if Spirit Rock mopped the floor with Phil in that game.

[ QUOTE ]
anyone who says he can't be the $15/30 at bellagio should be stripped of any "noted poker authority" title they have. Also, If phil were to show up at the bellagio i'm sure he could bring along his WSOP bracelet in limit hold em from 1992 and 1993 to show you.

[/ QUOTE ]

From what I've read from Phil's book, and from what I've read of Ed Miller's posts here on 2+2, there's little doubt in my mind who the true "Noted Poker Authority" is, not to mention that Ed's a better writer.

I would venture to say that Phil wouldn't even rank as one of the top ten posters on this site if he became a member.

Ed Miller

06-11-2004, 01:59 PM

You're telling me that someone who has played winning professional poker for the past 30 years cannot beat the $15-$30 at the Bellagio?

He hasn't played "winning professional poker" for 30 years. I don't think you fully understand how these tournament professionals work. Some of them are are very good at playing tournaments (Phil is included in this group)... others really aren't that good at all, and some may even be underdogs. But essentially no matter how good they are, they all require being staked most or all of their time playing. So they constantly have this outside money coming in to support them.

Without an enormous bankroll to start with (or getting lucky early and generating one right off the bat), you essentially cannot play big money tournaments for 20 years on your own bill and not go broke. The variance is too high... even if you are THE BEST IN THE WORLD.

What these "name" tournament players have going for them is their name. That guarantees them a steady stream of outside cash to support them. Phil also uses his name expertly to generate outside income from books, DVDs, $10k per night "Poker nights with Phil," etc. I can basically guarantee you that Phil makes FAR more from these endeavors than he makes playing poker... and furthermore, he may well have made far more from these lifetime than he has ever made playing poker lifetime (including his WSOP wins).

Now, there are also very big cash games, and the players who do well in those can make a WHOLE LOT OF MONEY. But Phil never plays in those anymore, because he took such a severe beating in them when he did play them, he finally caught on and quit. I know this directly from someone who has played with Phil in cash games on many occasions.

Phil has found a strategy that has been successful for him in no limit tournaments. But that strategy does not fare well at all in limit cash cames. Quite frankly, Phil has absolutely no idea how to play such games at any level higher than whatever small games he used to play in Wisconsin. He would have no chance in the $15-$30 at the Bellagio. He could win off the occasional tourist, but he would consistently be the third worst player at the table. I am quite sure about that...

stupidsucker

06-11-2004, 02:01 PM

Ken Warrens book "Winner's Guide to Texas Hold'em" was the first poker book I ever read.

I took the tatoo thing as a little humor, and he had a few other things in there trying to be funny.

I still think it was a great first poker book, and I would recomend it to anyone for a start. Not all of his advice is perfect, but he talked a lot about position and starting hands. He put in some nice odds stat pages. This isnt a book I would recomend to anyone as anything BUT a first poker book, but to say its awful and terrible and unreadable isn't true.

Sorry Lou Krieger, I didnt get a thing out of the internet poker book. It was mainly just a demo for buying TTH, which I already had.

Books must be read so that you are at the proper level for that book. You have to learn to spit out the sticks while eating the hay. You shouldnt read HPFAP for your first book, and I wouldnt recomend Ken Warren after you are already a winning player.

Stefan Prodan

06-11-2004, 02:02 PM

Oh, okay. Sorry, make fun of me all you want, I just really don't follow the WSOP at all. I rooted for Chris Ferguson this year just because he seems like a really cool guy, but I didn't really care one way or the other and had never even heard that there were other events besides the Championship one.

Ed Miller

06-11-2004, 02:05 PM

which he is, anyone who says he can't be the $15/30 at bellagio should be stripped of any "noted poker authority" title they have. Also, If phil were to show up at the bellagio i'm sure he could bring along his WSOP bracelet in limit hold em from 1992 and 1993 to show you.

Tournaments of any kind have a very different strategy from cash games. Phil has not proven that he can beat any limit hold 'em cash game at any level higher than the very lowest. And his experience in the big games (very bad) his book (totally innaccurate) and the things he says when he does talk about limit cash games (generally quite wrong) lead me to the conclusion that he just can't do it. It's not easy to beat the $15-$30 at the Bellagio. It's impossible if you play poker like Phil does.

steamboatin

06-11-2004, 02:12 PM

What do you guys (& gals) think of Gary Carson's holdem book?

Ed Miller

06-11-2004, 02:37 PM

...my goal is not to embarrass people. I don't run around gossipping about how well Player X plays versus Player Y.

I do talk about Phil, though, because I think that his book was VERY irresponsible. He has literally millions of people convinced that he is a world class poker player, and they therefore infer that he is a world class limit hold 'em cash games player as well (you can see that inference at work in this thread). So they buy his book, read his limit hold 'em cash games section, and proceed to lose money as a result.

He has represented himself to be something that he is not, and that has caused people to give him undue trust. I frankly think that is unethical. If Phil had stuck to writing about no limit tournaments, I would have no such comments for him.

It's one thing to be unknown and write a bad book. Unknowns gain respect based on the quality of their advice, so if you don't know what you are talking about, your book will simply fade into oblivion. But when you are Phil Helmuth and write a bad book, hundreds of thousands of people will buy it and listen to your terrible advice. Unsuspecting people have lost literally millions of dollars (total loss, not an individual's loss) because of his words. IMO, he deserves to be called out for that.

TXTiger

06-11-2004, 03:16 PM

"Here we are told to cap the betting with hands like ace-queen and a pair of sevens, but “you might want to back off” if a timid player raises or reraises, to three bet with small pairs, always raise if first in with ace-little suited , and to usually call three bets out of either blind with queen-jack suited or jack-ten suited. The play on the flop and beyond is also incredibly aggressive."

I knew about playing small pairs like aces, but I wondered where all of those preflop raises with A3s were coming from. Thanks again Phil, my bankroll appreciates it.

jumpthru

06-11-2004, 03:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
my guess is that phil is confident in his skills that he can beat everyone post flop, also, that he might be able to bully players around just on his image of a good poker player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about that dude. Some of the UB 25/50 NL are pretty damn tough. I wouldn't be at all suprised if Spirit Rock mopped the floor with Phil in that game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Speaking of which...who is SpiritRock?????

I have seen him with $40,000+ at those tables....anyone know the max buy in??

jumpthru

06-11-2004, 03:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ken Warrens book "Winner's Guide to Texas Hold'em" was the first poker book I ever read.

I took the tatoo thing as a little humor, and he had a few other things in there trying to be funny.

I still think it was a great first poker book, and I would recomend it to anyone for a start. Not all of his advice is perfect, but he talked a lot about position and starting hands. He put in some nice odds stat pages. This isnt a book I would recomend to anyone as anything BUT a first poker book, but to say its awful and terrible and unreadable isn't true.

Sorry Lou Krieger, I didnt get a thing out of the internet poker book. It was mainly just a demo for buying TTH, which I already had.

Books must be read so that you are at the proper level for that book. You have to learn to spit out the sticks while eating the hay. You shouldnt read HPFAP for your first book, and I wouldnt recomend Ken Warren after you are already a winning player.

[/ QUOTE ]

You must be joking...I cant read a page without disagreeing with what hes saying or thinking he sucks at poker...etc. Worst book ever. Period.

MicroBob

06-11-2004, 04:04 PM

the WSOP that EVERYONE knows about is the final-championship $10k buy-in NL hold-em event.

the 3 weeks or so leading up to this event there are several other WSOP titles on the line.
Annie Duke won her first bracelet this year by taking the Omaha O/8 tourney for example (probably a $2k buy-in i'm guessing for $100k-$200k top prize ...don't feel like looking up the link).

Phil finished at a couple of the final tables this year and i think added another bracelet to his collection.

David Sklansky won a bracelet in 1982...i think it might have been in Razz.

ESPN will be showing many of the 'other' events this year beginning in July. this is the first time they have done this.
so if you've ever wanted to see the WSOP Razz or 7-stud or Omaha championship then you are going to get your chance.

btw....i predict that the coverage of these games will lead to significantly more (and ultra-fishy) action in these games on the internet. consequently, i'm thinking of learning the tight-aggressive approach for stud/8 and omaha NOW so that i'm ready if there really is a Fish-Wave.

hell, i don't even know how to play Razz (i think it's 7-stud played for low hand) or triple-draw or any of that stuff.
i'm not completely out of my element in O/8 though.

MicroBob

06-11-2004, 04:16 PM

i have to agree with Ed here.
Phil's hold-em advice is so bizarre it is hard to believe he is a winning player. even if he is trying to dumb-it-down for a beginner, a winning player should be able to quickly realize that the strategies he advocates are faulty.

many many others have related various tales that he is NOT a good limit player and that he is an overall loser in various limit games. not really sure what to make of such 'gossip' though because there are so many people that dislike him.
some of the gossip is probably about as reliable as a 2+2 post saying that Raymer had Moneymaker's alien love-child.

Hellmuth's WSOP championship came in 1989 when he was 23. he has NOT been playing professionally for 30 years. he's only 37 or 38 or so right??

in fact, i don't believe Wisconsin had legalized poker-room until much much later anyway.

i have briefly lived near Madison (yes....i sadly share something in common with Hellmuth) and visit various relatives there at least once a year and don't recall any casinos in Wisc until the late 90's.

but i didn't play poker or other casino games at that time either so perhaps i just wasn't aware of them.

still, i believe that his poker experience in Wisconsin had to be private or home-games.

regardless of his tournament abilities and experience....it is widely speculated that his limit game is lousy....and his advice in his book certainly seems to validate that speculation.

M2d

06-11-2004, 04:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
so if you've ever wanted to see the WSOP Razz... championship then you are going to get your chance

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, my tomatos and eggplants should be just about grown and the paint on my wall is already dry. I could be up for some viewing excitement.

rkaufman

06-11-2004, 04:55 PM

The max buy-in in that game is $5000. The thing I like most about Spirit Rock is that every time he loses a pot and his stack is less than $5000 he buys in to the max again. No, scratch that, I like his trash talking best. Playing heads-up against some chump one night, "if I don't break you I'll quit poker."

And he did break him, all $3000, less than 10 hands later.

Rob

deacsoft

06-11-2004, 08:11 PM

Anyone ever told you that you look a lot like Woody Paige?

Ilovephysics

06-11-2004, 09:05 PM

If someone wants to write a bad high-profile poker book, that's fine... I don't understand why having additional bad players is such a problem?

In any event, I think Phil's book has a simple message, which is: 'Bet premium hands.. and bet not so premium hands... well, actually, just bet most things anyway to see where you stand... unless a tight passive player raises you..'.

If that lessen on poker works for your table/limit/opponent level... great! Since I've never actually seen Phil play at a limit table, I can't comment on his play. But I'm sure there are plenty of people who clear as day remember sticking it to Phil, just like there are those of us who always seem to remember our bad beats...

bernie

06-11-2004, 09:36 PM

On the up side, many of the guys who know better thank phil for putting out this book and generating action for them from players trying to play like phil says to. They may think he's great for this. Let's hope he makes a mint and hits the bestseller list.

It keeps them away from those hucksters Sklansky and Malmuth. All those unknowns do is write books and never play. Just look at their advice. Everyone knows you dont bet a great hand if their is a draw out that can beat you later. Make sure you're hand is gold first. It saves ya chips. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

b

bernie

06-11-2004, 09:59 PM

This book barely registers a blip on the screen, but how about NGA (Noted Gambling Authority) John Patrick's poker book? He's got the video's to back him up too. He MUST know something.

I haven't read phil's book yet. But from many posters i respect, i trust their view of it rather than just looking at his pretty bracelets and getting weak in the knees. Though i will soon be ready to read a good comedy soon.

Knowing Ed and the times i got to yap with him, his post is not to slam phil personally, plenty of us do that anyways, he really thinks his book is crap and cares enough about teaching players to say so.

His book is probably good for smacking someone upside the head for saying folding AKo in the sb to an UTG raise is a good play, though. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif I hear it has a good binding to hold up to this use.

His old bet about AKo being better than AKs tells quite a bit about his knowledge of the game. I think he put $10,000 on that bet. Good thing his wife has a good job. Though that was a while ago, i think. Expensive way to learn that lesson.

I do agree, however, that even a bad book starting out will get a player at least thinking about the game. Which, no matter how one views the book, will put him a step ahead of the normal mopes on the table who never read a book.

I first learned BJ from about the worst book possible. Got lucky and won with it. Which inspired me even more to study the hell out of the game. Then even realizing how bad that first book was, it was still a stepping stone.

I still think phil is a whiny bitch on the table. There is plenty of video tape to support that.

b