Pocket Jacks, 15-30 hand

I was playing tonite at a Commerce 15-30 game. The table was about normal...usually 4 people seeing the flop. Nobody was overly tight or loose, except for the guy on my immediate right.


A few hands earlier, somebody raised before the flop with 2c4c, and rivers the nuts (a gutshot straight...). This guy on my right chuckles, and says that he is going to change his game plan. He is going to raise before the flop, regardless of cards, for 3 hands in a row, then just call for 3 hands, then repeat this pattern.


The first 2 hands pass without incidence...he is raising, and hasn't shown either (one he folded, one he won without a showdown). Now, he's second to act, and I have pocket jacks.


I hate pocket jacks (who doesn't?). I figure that his automatic raise gives me a 3-bet opportunity, and thus I can (hopefully) reduce the field size.


But now there is a monkey-wrench in my plan...UTG raises. He is somewhat solid, but has shown a propensity to raise with medium pocket pairs too often. The maniac three bets, and I'm stumped.


UTG knew that the maniac was going to raise, and he still was willing to raise. Hmmmm... I was afraid of a better hand, so I just called, as did 3 OTHER PLAYERS (we will see the flop 6 handed). One of the cold-callers was a fairly tight player, and I don't think he's calling with anything less that pocket tens or AQs. It comes back to UTG, and he caps.


Flop comes Ks 7h 4s.


The blinds have folded (Before the flop), and UTG bets. He will bet anything that he raised in this position...pocket 8s, AJs, or pocket aces (I think he'd check pocket kings). Maniac Raises.


Maniac loves check raising or raising on the turn with top pair...I honestly don't think he has a king. He also loves to bet flush draws (i.e. he 3-bet the turn earlier with a medium sized flush draw and no other outs). My best guess is that he has a spade draw. 5 - 6 is another viable option. And, since even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and again, he may have something like pocket 7s.


So, do I call? It is worth noting that i have the J of Spades....not that I'm wild about my runner runner flush draw, but this means that if a jack comes on the turn, it is less likely to put a flush out there.


Anyways, I fold, and only the tight player calls behind me. UTG mucks to the raise.


Turn brings a red 2, Maniac bets, tight player calls (it's heads up at this point).


More (including results) in following post. My question is, would anybody raise or call on the flop?


Thanks in advance,


Worm

Like I said, I folded on the flop, and it gets heads up.


After the bet-call with the red 2 on the turn, the river brings the Jack of Diamonds (no flush). You knew that had to come, or else, I wouldn't have posted it!!


Check, Check. Maniac shows A5s (missed his gut-shot straight, flush, and overcard), and tight player shows 2 queens, and takes down a large pot.


Now, I for the most part, respect this "tight" player. His call with 2 queens is very similar to what my situation was with 2 jacks. The benefit he had is that there was one less person to act behind him (there were 2 behind him, 3 behind me), and his hand could beat pocket jacks.


If his call was correct, then mine was really close to correct, as well. Of course, I would have given him a moderately brutal beat if I had stuck around.


On another note, if I had raised on the flop (i.e. 3bet it), he would have layed it down, and nobody would have been the wiser (maniac would have folded to a river bet, which I'd make, cuz i just hit my set).


Thoughts?

Gummy Worm,


Tough spot, I almost don't want to respond but I can't shut up tonight, so here goes.

I think that the call on the flop is okay, who'd a thunk there'd be so much action behind you, which is what turns out to be the problem. I'm not going to try to go into your potential odds (implied and otherwise) as its not my forte(though I'm sure some would ask what is /images/wink.gif ). If not for all the players behind you three-betting the flop might not be so terrible against the players in front of you as described; in this case it would seem preferable to a call(but not necessarily a fold). As is, there's a pretty good chance that someone behind you is holding A-K or even a worse K(which won't fold anyway since they were willing to call three bet preflop), so you can't get rid of any good hand or draw behind you with the option of taking a free turn. Needless to say, running spades are not likely to be good, so, probably the only value of your J is that if you hit someone else won't also. I think that you made a good fold under the circumstances, this hand could easily have become more expensive. One other possible(though probably very remote)scenario if you call is: QQ calls and raises the turn if he thinks that he's willing to call down anyway and figures if he's drawing dead, can muck for a reraise; again this seems pretty unlikely, but I've seen an awful lot of unlikely things and this one would deprive you of hitting the two-outer anyway.


Hope this was of some value,


Mike

While pocket Jacks is usually an easy fold if a tight player raises and then a semi-sane person 3 bets, I think you are right that it is probably worth a play since the guy said ahead of time that he was gonna raise 3 hands in a row. But the error of not 4 betting is a big mistake. JJ lose significant value when the pot gets anymore then 2 opponents, so calling here is by far the worst mistake- either reraise or fold. On the flop you have to give up every time. Even if you are 100% sure that neither UTG or 3 bettor have a king (note there is no way to be 100% sure) you still have to worry about somebody behind you having a King. This is once again quite likely since 3 other players called 3 bets cold. The pot is big but who cares, your chances are so small that it doesn't matter in this case. Looking again I see that there is a flush draw- this makes things even worse. This is an easy fold period.

As you well know, hold'em is a game that awards aggressiveness. That said, you should have capped the betting preflop. With Jacks you want a lot of players or very few players, and 6 players is about the worst number you'd want. You know what you SHOULD have done. You should have taken all your chips, and sat down at that juicy 3/6 omaha game. But then again I'd just keep hitting my 3-outers to beat you anyway... so I dunno, I guess you're screwed either way.

You spelled your name wrong.