Hand to Talk About

Here's an interesting hand I played this evening in a $20-$40 hold 'em game at The Mirage.


Two players limped in early, a wild player and an unknown player. I had AhJh in late position and raised. Both blinds called as did the two limpers and five of us saw the flop.


The flop was KdQc3h. It was checked to me and before I could act the player in the small blind threw his hand away. I bet, the big blind raised, the wild player reraised, the next person folded, I called (both bets), and the initial raiser called.


Fourth street was the 10s. It was checked to me. I bet and both players called.


The river was the 9c. The first person checked, the wild player bet, I raised, and everyone folded.


All coments are welcome.

Nice. /images/smile.gif Keeping in mind I've never played 20/40 (most was 10/20), I'm guessing BB had u beat on the flop (AK/KQ? KT? 2 pair? something) and wild player had a flush draw...


That's how I'd see wild player folding on the river. (I'm basing this on guessing that wild player loves to bet/raise, but also calls more often than fold).


So how off do people think I am? /images/smile.gif


- Tony

Mason,


My first instinct on the flop would be to muck it for two more bets, but since YOU called I guess that I should reconsider the implied odds of this situation. Getting 8 - 1 and not knowing if its going to be reraised seems like a precarious spot, not to mention the possibility of needing to pay more than one bet on the turn if you pick up the flush draw (or an ace which might be no good). If you think that your call is going to deter more betting on the flop and maybe the turn when you miss, as happened here(that is, they checked the turn anyway), then obviously the implied odds are there.


It's too bad that we don't have more one-word adjectives for "wild" players (like the eskimos supposedly have so many different words for different kinds of snow) as there are so many different types of wild players, who get "wild" in so many different ways, though many of them with some kind of "consistancy." I know that when my playing friends and I are discussing a particular known maniac (to us), we know exactly what the other is talking about.


Only he and God(and maybe you) have any idea what your wild player had, he obviously didn't have something w/ a J as he would have called your raise on the end, maybe some junky K or Q or a pocket pair, probably not even T-9; and he just tried to steal it from you on the end.


Nice pot,


Mike

Well if i counted right you are getting 8 1/2 to 1 on the flop assuming that the BB now just calls. Sounds right given your nut gut draw, backdoor nut flush draw and an overcard. If he doesn't call (this is probably very unlikely) you only get 8-1 but now your chances of winning the pot have maybe increased in other ways. I am going to guess that the reason this hand is interesting is because you somehow knew that the guy in the BB wouldn't 4 bet. Four betting seems to me that it would cost you too much to stay (obviously I mean if you knew this ahead of time- if you did call then it came back 2 bets again you'd be stuck in there) since now not only would you have to call another bet, but you might get stuck in for another 2 bets if the wild guy caps. Also while most players probably aren't likely to play a set this way, some certainly will, and it presents the problem of making the nuts on the turn but you now need to survive the river in case they fill up. Turn is obvious, and the river is interesting too. It of course is a bad card if nobody else has a Jack but if somebody else does then this is a good river. I assume that when you raised on the river it was because you figured the BB didn't have a Jack since he would have probably bet it. Also when the wild player bets he is probably going to call for another bet if he has anything at all, but the other player is maybe not going to overcall unless he has significant strength. it all boils down to this- You figured that you were more likely to get the bettor to call a raise then you were to get the BB to overcall, and along with this there was still a small possibilty that they both had hands that could call the raise in which case you really gain by raising.

There was no flush draw on the flop or the turn.

First of all I'm surprised you didn't get more action on this hand.


given your description of the players I probably would have taken the free card on the flop. I look forward to hearing your reasons for betting.


It might be debateable to call two bets on the flop with a gutshot and a backdoor flush draw. By my count you're getting 8:1 pot odds to call so it seems like a pretty decent overlay given your implied odds.


I also liked the raise on the river. you could easily get called by the first player and you might even get really lucky and have the wild guy re-raise.


BTW - I'm standing by my previous statement that AJs is not a lucky hand, for me. Looks like it works pretty well for you though.

Preflop, I like the raise if it seems likely to buy the button and knock out a blind or two; dead money and position are two of my favorite things. Since it's unlikely a better ace or AA-JJ would limp, you also have to think you have the best hand in yet.


On the flop, it's hard to imagine the limp friendly KQx missing all 4 players, so I would be sorely tempted to check and take a free card unless I thought a bet here might buy me a free look at the river. When the action gets back to you after you bet, if we think about what the wild playing check reraiser has, it's probably nothing better than a pair as he shouldn't want to shut the other players out with a big hand or a draw. Further, if he has a K or Q it probably isn't with an ace, or he would have raised preflop, so if you hit your ace it's likely good against at least this opponent. The BB also shouldn't have a big hand to make a field limiting check raise on the flop, so your only real concern here is that the BB holds AK or AQ; but he has a wide enough range of possible hands at this point that I think it's wrong to fear your ace will be no good if you hit it just yet. So, with 4 nut straight outs and 3 nut pair outs, I think it's an easy call when you are getting 8:1, and even worth a reraise if the BB would fold an AQ or a weak king (he would have to be pretty weak/tight to release an AK, but I suppose that's possible too). If BB would be likely to smoothcall AK preflop (and you don't think you can push him off it now or on the turn), or would be unlikely to check raise with AQ on the flop, then the reraise loses most of its value.


On the turn, your bet is automatic after you make the nuts and everyone checks to you. I'm unsure how I would react if a blank came and it checked to me, although I would probably wimp out and take the free card -- from the action on the flop, I would have to think a bluff is hopeless against 2 players very likely to hold a pair.


On the river, the BB is probably unlikely to overcall you without a jack, but he would call your raise with a jack, so I think you don't lose anything by going for the raise. Too bad nobody had anything.

Nice hand - I think you played it perfect.

My only major reservation here would be how aggressive the BB is and how likely he would be to 4 bet in this spot.

The wild one will probably cap it in such a scenario in which case 4 - 1 is no good and a fold is in order.

However if you read the BB's checkraise as being a sign of comparative weakness then a call is OK.

oops, thought the flop was 2 hearted...

The interesting part of this hand is your bet on the flop. This is a close one. My guess is that if the small blind hadn't folded out of turn, you wouldn't have bet?


Now you estimate that the chance of seeing both the turn and river for "free" or stealing the pot immediately, is worth the risk of beeing check-raised.


There is a decent chance that your ace will be good if it hits, since the two early limpers would have raised if they had AK or AQ. You also have a back-door flush draw, which approx can be counted as one extra out.


As I said your bet is close and I'm looking forward to hearing your explanation...

" Nice hand. I think you played it perfect"


Really? I think the call of the 2 more bet on the flop not knowinng if it will be reraised is a very marginal call.


5 handed checked to on the flop I would consider checking here. I sometimes bet if I think everybody is weak and I have a good shot at getting checked to on the turn so I can get a free card. But with 4 other player I like checking. It is a board that probably hit people amd I would be happy to check and see what the turn brings.


Turn amd river I would play the same way.

It's true that you will wish you hadn't called if BB makes it 4 bets on the flop (it increases your cost to draw and calls 3 of your outs into question), but I think BB is usually not very strong when he makes a field limiting check raise on the flop like that. It's much more likely to be a "go away, I only have one pair" raise than a "let's build a pot, I have top two or a set" raise. I hate a fold here when being offered 8:1 to call with 4 absolute nut outs, a backdoor nut flush draw, and 3 more outs to a nut pair that you have little reason (yet) to believe wouldn't be good.


I think the real decision is whether to reraise yourself (which might knock BB off AQ or a weak king and set up a chance for you to steal against the wild player, or just take a free card if both players call you), or just call. These guys can't put you off of AK AA KK QQ or even KQs yet, so your shot to steal the pot on the turn or river with a reraise now could be quite high against the right players. It depends if the wild player is the shot taking type who can lay down a weak hand, or if he is the type who would never fold a pair in a big pot.


I definitely agree with you that the flop is the most interesting part of this hand to think about though. /images/smile.gif

"The flop was KdQc3h. It was checked to me and before I could act the player in the small blind threw his hand away. I bet, the big blind raised, the wild player reraised, the next person folded, I called (both bets)..."


WHY?

Well, the call for 2 bets is closer than it looks. I just don't like it becuase the only thing you can really count on is the 4 for the gutshot. Maybe the Ace would be good. But you can't count on it. Someone could have J10 also. And even if you make the hand it could get outdrawn on river if someone has a set or 2 pair. I don't like reraising on the flop. I understand your point but I think with the check, check, you bet and now raise and a reraise by the next opponent is a strong indication that there is a very good hand out there. The first raise may not be strong although it could be because most people will not slow play with a high connected board. Especially the 2nd raise, he looks like KQ or better to me. So I don't think it likely to win this hand by bluffing on the turn. If your going to do it I think the intention would be to get a free turn, but like I said with all this action you may not get that free card and you might get reraised again on the flop.

I don't see a K-Q-x rainbow flop as limp friendly. I think a flop with midddle or middle-high cards is more limp friendly, as limpers are likely to have middle-high suited connectors or medium pairs. Thus I would be more inclined to bet this flop, especially since small blind had already folded out of turn.

I was thinking of players with loose preflop standards and hands like AJ AT KQ KJ KT K9s QJ QTs Q9s JT J9s T9 when I said "limp friendly". These standards are maybe too low in this case, but I see a lot of players make these calls preflop when it's not raised to them. Perhaps a gutshot shouldn't be considered "friendly" for them, but with 10 bets in the pot preflop they will be correct to call with just a gutshot, almost forcing you to bet again on the turn to get them out.


I guess the "friendliness" of this flop for the other players also depends on how well you think you can bully these weaker hands around, using your position and their fear of what you raised preflop with. I agree that the two medium card flops (JTx and T9x especially) are more dangerous, but I still find KQx pretty scary against loose opponents when I haven't flopped a pair or a big draw.

In my game, one is much more likely to win against small number of limpers with a bet when the flop is K-Q-x rainbow than when it is, say, T-9-4 two-tone. Connectedness at the K-Q level is much less likely to make a draw for a limper than connectedness at a lower rank and a hand like second pair is much more likely to play on, seomtimes aggressively, reasoning that a flop without any high cards missed the raiser.


In my game, the players with the looser preflop standards are much more likely to raise pre-flop, rather than limp, with the hands you list that contain a K or a Q. I find a flop containing a king an excellent flop to bet into when I was the pre-flop raiser behind one or two limpers. In this case especially, when one of the blinds who could have "accidentally" has a king already folded, all the more reason to bet on the flop.

I didn't want to psot this in my original post but the wild player had K3 giving hime a lope of top and bottom pair.

"I am going to guess that the reason this hand is interesting is because you somehow knew that the guy in the BB wouldn't 4 bet."


You don't know for sure but generally if the player had a hand strong enough for four bets they will frequently wait to the turn and trey to raise there, or they would lead on the flop looking for three bets.


"I assume that when you raised on the river it was because you figured the BB didn't have a Jack since he would have probably bet it."


That's correct. But if the BB does have the jack, he will call the two bets cold.

"given your description of the players I probably would have taken the free card on the flop. I look forward to hearing your reasons for betting."


If the small blind would not have thrown his hand away immediately I just might have taken that free card. But once he folds I only have to beat three people, two of which might be very weak (the limpers) and a BB who could have many hands that he would fold (such as a small pair or something like 76s.

"Really? I think the call of the 2 more bet on the flop not knowinng if it will be reraised is a very marginal call."


But my ace might be good and I have a backdoor flush draw as well. So even if it does occasionally go to four or more bets, these other factors should balance that.


"5 handed checked to on the flop I would consider checking here."


But it became four handed because of the early fold.

I agree with most of your analysis, but there is virtually no way you can steal on the turn. The wild player must have something to make it three bets, and with a pot that size he will always pay off.

WHY NOT?

"WHY NOT?"


fair enough. your A may not be good if you hit it so it's not a legit out. you could easily be looking at JT open ended from the checkraising bb or the 3 betting "wild" player. also you could already be up against two pair (Kx or KQ), so a pair of aces wont help you there. lastly the A could make someone else two pair.


so you really have 4 outs here and a backdoor flush draw. you are not getting the correct implied odds to peel one off when it comes back to you for 2 more bets with the threat of going to 4 (or 5 in vegas right?) bets. you just dont. furthermore these players are showing considerable strength on the flop despite your preflop raise and your button position.


maybe you know something about these players that we dont and your sharing that will justify your play--? as it is, this looks like the sort of mistake i would make. weird.