Frozen like a deer in the headlights

I hate how I played this hand. Here it is:


UTG limps, MP raises, I call in the big blind with Q-Js.


Flop comes J-10-x, none of my suit


I check; UTG bets, he will often bet any draw or any pair in this spot and plays far too many hands in early position and otherwise; MP calls, I put him on probably A-K or A-Q(and doesn't raise for free turn) and I just call in case he seems to hit the turn or he's looking to raise the turn with a set.


Turn: blank


I check again, UTG bets, MP calls(he now most definately has overcards) and I call(!!??).


River: 9


I check, UTG bets, MP folds, I make a stupid crying call, knowing that now I can't even beat J-9, which is exactly what UTG shows me!!


I realize that you guys don't like to see the results until later, but the results seem almost irrelevent to me; I played this hand like a total calling-station and could have atleast saved a bet on the end when there were so few legitimate hands that I could beat. In retrospect, a check-raise on the turn may have worked, though it is a stronger play than I would have previously ever thought of making in a similar situation. Check-raising the flop and betting the turn, I think, would have likely been less effective against UTG, he would maybe have been more tied on to the pot, though I could be misjudging him somewhat.


I'm tempted to say, "fire away, you can't be any tougher on me than I've already been" but I know how much you folks love a challenge /images/wink.gif . Anyway, as usual, I'll appreciate any input.


Mike

once youve checked the flop, raise when it comes back to you.


there isnt anything you can do to drag this particular pot, but you need to get more money in on the flop when you are about even money to win with 2 players contributing(a 3-outer, and 2 overcards, you might even have them both dominated). maximise your EV etc.

although i may have been affected by the results, K-J is probably equally likely for the UTG limper.


were you plannin on check-raising the pre-flop raiser.?

Yes, I would almost always check-raise the preflop raiser in this spot. Probably one of the reasons I was thrown off, the bet came from the wrong guy; that and the fact that I was having a pretty bad day in a pretty bad game up to that point. I realize that this should have no effect on my play, but it must have because I really don't think that I get myself into spots like this or play hands this way very often.

Mike -

I can't really comment on the hand cos in all honesty I would have folded before the flop unless there was 1 more caller.

JQs IMO needs around 7 - 1 before the flop to call a raise with cos there's just too much chance of it being dominated in a short handed raised pot, just the kind of situation I think you need to avoid - especially against a solid raiser.

The interesting thing about your commentary is what you don't say. Namely that playing the hand was a questionable decision in the first place.

Sometimes I think the problem is not how you play but WHAT you play.

Really?????


Don't call one bet in the big blind against two players? If this is very wrong then I have a big problem because I can't see where this is such a bad call.


I'd very much like to hear other opinions.


Thanks,


Mike

First off I have to agree with Payoff. That is if the raiser is solid. Your calling to play a shorthanded pot out of position with a hand that is probably dominated by the raiser. I want one more caller as well to get 7 to 1. If the raiser is not solid then I would call. QJs looks pretty. Kinda like that k10s hand we were discussing yesterday. But in actuality can get you in trouble. The reason you had trouble playing this hand is because you were out of position. In fact I can't fire away at you on the rest of the hand. The way it went down you were in a bad spot to do anything except call because you were out of position. I might have bet out on the turn though. UTG might check behind and you don't want to give a free card to both players.

pokerguy,


Thanks for the response, I will give some more thought to calling in this spot. And you're right the reason that I had so much trouble, was because of my position which is why I realize that I need to reconsider.


BTW, the pre-flop raiser, while sometimes capable of playing fairly solid, was stuck and raising w/ a larger range of hands, which may not have theoretically made my call so bad in this case(results notwithstanding).


Thanks again,


Mike

If you read the raise to be marginal - it's a play if you read it to be legitimate it's a muck unless you get 7 - 1 or more on your money

.....you want 7 to 1 to call one bet against two players from bb w/ QJs? I know that's about the odds of flopping a flush draw, does the possibility of domination wipe out straight and pair(etc) value completely? I understand mucking head-up against solid EP raise.


Thanks,


Mike

You are worst off in a 3 way pot against players with legitimate hands. there are 2 hands out hich likely dominate you, and the 2 opponents can make drawing expensive when you flop a draw, but not offer a really big pot when you do hit. It also is very hard to win without a showdown in this spot. The threat of a check -raise can make you fold weak draws on the flop, particularly a gut-shot.


Even if you dominate one opponent, you still aren't best, your position stinks and not you have one less card available to help your hand. This is a pretty bad call imho.


Other than that, check-raising the turn seems best. Check raising the flop is almost silly and you get killed if you are losing. On the turn, leading or check - raising is ok. On the river, your call is pretty weak, but can't be terrible.


Dan Z.

Dan,


Thanks for the response. Like I said, I hate how I played this hand, but not, necessarily, that I played it all. I can be a stubborn SOB like that. If I am wrong in this spot I'll learn it eventually and hopefully sooner rather than later. Still, I'd like to see other opinions though(not to disrespect yours' and the others given). My take, I'm sure, probably comes from the relative softness of my games; if my games were tougher I can see where I would definately need to give this much more serious consideration.


Thanks again,


Mike


P.S. I'm still thinkin' about it and just by the way the hand played out should be enough evidence for me, shouldn't it?

I haven't seen this discussed yet and it has little to do with this particular hand, but one thing I think is important to consider is WHERE the raise comes from. I'm a little more likely to call a raise (from the bb) when there is a caller between me and the raiser. The reason for this has to do with the propensity many players have to "check to the raiser". This might not seem like a big deal, but in close spots it's often a little clearer how to proceed with your hand.

Calling a legitimate raise in the blind with anything less than a premium hand is wrong unless you have a nut straight or flush draw and there are many players and no possibility of a reraise. Here's why, using your QJ as an example:


You are almost certainly not dominating the raiser. He has AA-JJ, AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, TT, or 99. And he only has the last 3 2nd in if he is somewhat aggressive. I don't post sims (you can run them yourself), but I think it is clear that your 3-1 odds (I giving you the benefit of the doubt and figuring that you are even money against the other player) are only good enough against the AK, TT, and 99. On top of that you are playing the whole hand out of position and are much more likely than him to make a second best hand that you would have to pay off.


I'm sorry I'm not offering more concrete numbers and facts but I am tired. I did want to get something in before this post dies, however, because you seem like a nice guy and I know you are costing yourself money by trying to run uphill with these hands out of position.


As for the rest of the hand I would say this: I think you know you played it poorly on every street. EVERYONE does this sometimes. When I play a hand like this, unless it is the best game I have found in weeks, I go home and come back tomarrow. The reason for this is not because I think that I can't play that day, but because I know I will spend every second at the table from that point forward beating myself up. If you find yourself doing this, follow my example and go home.

Dav,


Thanks for the response, while the player in question will raise with a couple more hands than you mentioned, you're right there are too many hands that I am in real trouble against. You mentioned 3 to 1 odds in the hand though I was getting 5 to 1 to look at the flop and (stubborn me) I still can't help but think that its not such a terrible thing to look at the flop if I'm able to play well afterwards(though from the way I played this hand that seems highly debatable).


Historically, in my life I've had a tendency to "beat myself up" over mistakes but I have found this to be very counter-productive in both life and poker. As a result, I've gotten better at "forgiving" myself while trying to make sure not to ignore, but learn from, my mistakes. So quitting for the day over an isolated(though probably not the only) mistake like this(as ugly as it was) is not necessarily the answer.


Thanks again,


Mike

I said 3:1 because of the other player in the pot. He might win too. Putting you at even money with the third player will discount his money. Sure, you might win it, but he could win your money too. I made a rough estimate in order to show your hand's value solely against the raisers. By the way, unless the raiser is a very weak player, being able to "out play" someone out of position is questionable, even if you are an expert.


Also, it seems as though you are well on your way to becoming a tremendous player if you are not one already. Anyone you can look at themselves honestly and learn from their mistakes will improve infinately faster than most everyone else.


One more thing. Think about specific flops you need to "know" you have the raiser beat and the frequency with which they occur.

Dav,


I'm still not sure that I understand the 3:1, I'm getting 5:1 to look at the flop, but only 2:1 after the flop if all bets are equalized by all players to the river. So I can only assume that you must believe that my approximate odds of winning this hand under the conditions described are 3:1, which I am unprepared to argue with.


Thanks for the compliment, I do try hard.


As to flops that I like, well I can certainly think of many more that I don't like(the one I got, for instance, especially given how I played it) but, until now, I was willing to accept this while getting 5:1 to look at the flop with this hand under these circumstances; my stance may now change on this, or it may later change, or it may never change. But I will keep thinking about it and inquiring(though I may not ask Backdoor, if you've seen the above thread /images/wink.gif )


Thanks again,


Mike