PDA

View Full Version : Did I play this perfectly.............?


10-14-2001, 01:49 AM
.......or did should I have looked for more info to save bets when I'm beat at the risk of bets when I'm not?

I LOVE praise, but I CRAVE constructive criticism from reliable authorities, especially since discovering this forum.

Anyway, here's the hand...


I open-raise in the cutoff with K-K;


Weak-tight player (while looking at the BB) three-bets from the small blind. This player is far more likely to three-bet with a big pair than a big ace, especially against me. I just call--head-up.


Flop: A-x-x; He bets, I call


Turn: blank; He bets, I call


River: blank; He checks, I bet, he calls.


I show my K's and he mucks.


Obviously I've read this situation well and made the max, what I'd like to know is if this is a reasonably sound way to play this hand against most opponents whether weak-tight or not. If I raise the flop, I probably cost myself bets against a worse hand but keep it from drawing out; unless I'm beat, in which case I probably find out and can save 2-2 1/2 bb. If I raise the turn, for the "free" showdown: same story, except I lose either way, unless I prevent some unlikely draw-out. I came out smellin' good on this hand, my next post is the dead opposite.


Thanks in advance for any input,


Mike

10-14-2001, 02:12 AM
Mike-


I see little reason to raise after the flop. This is a hand where you're likely either way ahead or way behind. If you raise the turn, he'll probably fold QQ,JJ, etc. which you wouldn't want him to do if you figure to collect another big bet on the river from these hands. I'm not a reliable authority, but I thought I'd give my two cents anyway.

10-14-2001, 02:34 AM
Kevin,


You told me exactly what I wanted to hear, so why wouldn't I think that you're a reliable authority? /images/wink.gif


Thanks,


Mike

10-14-2001, 12:44 PM
I hesitate to comment because I don't put myself in the "reliable authority" category. But I would feel uncomfortable in most cases once the ace flopped if I didn't throw in another raise pre-flop. Your bet on the end was strong (maybe that's a signal I'm too weak!:-)) But why not raise again pre-flop? Even if the guy is weak, there are some reasons he could 3-bet in the small blind with less than a big pair. You open raised in the cut-off which is a signal you could have a wide variety of hands. The SB looked to the BB to maybe see if he could drive him out. Why is it out-of-the question for him to have AK, AQ? Is a weak-tight player capable of betting 10's or JJ like this? Particularly the second barrel on the turn once you smooth call? (I suppose he was, although QQ is a real posibility) Maybe I play it wrong, but I would be much more likely to conceal the strength of my hand by just smooth-calling with aces as opposed to kings. If you pop him back pre-flop, you may slow him down when an ace flops or have a better read if he bets into you after an ace flops. I like to jam it with kings pre-flop because I worry about an ace when there's a lot of action. But I did win a very big pot at the Bellagio against a Chicago player who liked to jam his KK when I had AA. We both flopped sets. Ouch. But I think the guy had a good read on what I had because of his jamming with KK, but wouldn't let himself save the money by trusting the read. :-)


Tell me if I'm full of it!

10-14-2001, 05:12 PM
Hi High,


I often won't cap preflop w/ the biggest pairs, its often as easy to get that bet on the flop against one player and/or set them up for raise on the turn. In a multiway pot I, when I don't cap, am considering pot manipulation, and again, concealing the strength of my hand. I agree w/ you, I'll let the one player keep betting into me if I DO have the ace, when I think its likely good, no reason to scare the guy out if I think he only has about two outs. For this reason, I believe that there are quite a few different situations in which a call can be as scary to opponent(s) as a raise. If the flop had come rags, I might be able to get three bets on the flop and two on the turn,plus river call. I also might have mucked if he bet the river "insisting" that he had an ace; in this situation I have likely saved one or two sb's from when I raise the flop when he does have an ace.

I just woke up hope that this isn't too incoherent. Thanks for your reply.


Mike

10-14-2001, 06:53 PM

10-14-2001, 07:09 PM
I agree that sometimes a call is scarier than a raise. Since I'm not the greatest player around I try to play against players who don't think enough to be scared of a call.:-) I've called before as well, and then used the appearance of strength from a call followed by a bet to my advantage. But I think I'm more likely to do it with either aces or queens or jacks (although calling with jacks makes more sense on the merits alone) than kings. Because you can get a tight enough player off kings with the threat of aces out there if you have queens or jacks, and if you have aces, well, no overcards possible and you partially conceal your strength. I still may be off base though.

10-14-2001, 09:33 PM

10-15-2001, 01:17 AM
I just want to say something real quick about pot manipulation. We all know that profit in poker comes from volume x expectation, so I think you better be damn sure that the pot manipulation will give you a lot of added expectation before you give up volume where you obviously have a positive expectation (such as a big pair before the flop). I think that this is rarely, if ever, the case. What do others think. I would love to hear a good argument in favor of the manipulation.

10-16-2001, 03:38 PM
What happens if you raise on the flop and the guy smooth calls all the way with Ax. Are you comfortable with KK all the way to the river. What is your turn and river bet decision?

10-17-2001, 11:28 AM
What limit were your playing at the Bellagio when you had the AA KK hand? I know I wasn't in the game, but I'm wondering if you had the hand against my friend Jake or anyone else I knew from Chicago.