Cross-Post: How did they play? Bubble - 2-table SNG 20+2

[RocketManJames]

Final 5 from 18. 200 Small Blind/400 Big Blind, ante 25.

Seat 4 BTN: (10053 in chips) dealt 8 8
Seat 6 SB : (2585 in chips)
Seat 7 BB : (4449 in chips)
Seat 8 UTG: (4726 in chips) dealt 9 T
Seat 9 CO : (5187 in chips)

UTG makes it 800. BTN calls 800. BB calls 400 more. Pot = 2725.

Flop: 2 6 5

BB checks, UTG pushes 3901 all-in, BTN calls

Comments on this hand? How did both the UTG and BTN play? Results later.

-RMJ

[Prickly Pete]

Button Good
UTG Awful

[RocketManJames]

I cut and paste this (I had originally posted in wrong forum) and it left out the suits.

[ QUOTE ]
Final 5 from 18. 200 Small Blind/400 Big Blind, ante 25.

Seat 4 BTN: (10053 in chips) dealt 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Seat 6 SB : (2585 in chips)
Seat 7 BB : (4449 in chips)
Seat 8 UTG: (4726 in chips) dealt 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif
Seat 9 CO : (5187 in chips)

UTG makes it 800. BTN calls 800. BB calls 400 more. Pot = 2725.

Flop: 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif

BB checks, UTG pushes 3901 all-in, BTN calls

Comments on this hand? How did both the UTG and BTN play? Results later.

-RMJ

[/ QUOTE ]

[Beavis68]

Annie Duke would say BTN was an idiot - but he made the right call. It was risky making that call with 8 8, but he was right. The real question is, how many times do he call all-in with a weak hand like this when you are wrong? If you have a good feel for your opponent, great, but I would not make a habbit of this.

[RocketManJames]

Who said I was 88? Also, did you respond to the one with the suits? The original post had the suits missing.

Hoping that future responses are to the question WITH suits. It was my bad not to mess up my cross-post.

Thanks for your input.
-RMJ

[Beavis68]

Yeah, the 8 8 is a slight slight to the two overs and flush draw. I feel they both played it marginally. Not sure what he was thinking, but he had the T9ss covered, and there was decent money in the pot. Still, not many hands he is a big favorite too. Probably had the guy on KQ or AQ because of the weak pre-flop raise.

[Duke]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, the 8 8 is a slight slight to the two overs and flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean slight slight "dog?"

~D

[patrick dicaprio]

it is easy to second guess here but i dont think either one of them played it well. The BB played it better but how do you risk all of your chips here when you dont know whether you are way behind. you could easily be running into a brick wall. the BTn played it terribley i think but who knows what type of read he had etc. i certainly wouldnt call here. even if you knew that your opponent had a draw only you are still marginal to call and you are coughing up the chip lead if you are wrong. my guess is that the BTN said to himself maybe he is on a draw and if i knock him out i will have a ton of chips. is that right? maybe but it is a bad situation to cough up the lead.

Pat

[Galaxy 500]

My first post on this board so take this for what it's worth.

What is UTG hoping for with a 2XBB in this situation? I'm either calling or raising big here.

What is the guy with 88 hoping for by calling the 2XBB? This is either a serious reraise (probably all-in) or a fold.

With a flush draw after the flop, I think UTG checks hoping for a free card and maybe calls a bet.

With 3 undercards I think 88 is all-in.

jmo

[Tosh]

I prefer UTG's play. I'd push all in preflop as the button.

UTG was a favourite on the flop.

[RocketManJames]

Well, in this hand, I was the T/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif UTG. In hindsight, I was a very slight favorite on the flop. So, the money went in when I was not a dog. I was mostly curious about how poor a play it was. After I was the bubble boy, I figured I should have waited a bit to see if I had a better spot. But, I really did think I could take the pot right there with an all-in push on that flop. I didn't expect an overpair given that there wasn't any strength shown pre-flop. Anyway, the turn and river brought no help, and so I busted out in 5th.

-RMJ

[slogger]

I agree that neither played it very well, but I wanted to point out in response that the big stack doesn't even really want to knock this player out. Sure, he'll pick up a ton of chips, and that might be reason enough to consider calling, but knocking the opponent out will put everyone into the money and will make blind stealing significantly more difficult from here on out.

FWIW, UTG should have just folded. If he's going to make a play for the blinds (which is marginal with T9s, but not awful 5-handed on the bubble), he's got to raise it at least 3xBB, if not 3.5x to compensate for the antes. A mini-raise will almost never pick up the blinds in this situation. It's incredible how many idiots online mini-bet and mini-raise. Incredible!

I think BTN should be moving in over the top of this mini-raise (given the stack sizes in the blinds) every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Maybe it's hindsight, but the mini-raise just seems to signal weakness much more often than strength in these small buy-in SNGs, and even if UTG is willing to bubble himself out of the tourney with AK, AJ, KQ or some other other garbage (which, if he was smart, he wouldn't be), BTN is still at least a 55% favorite to move into ridiculous stack territory. Just calling guarantees the BB will come along, and there is no flop w/o an 8 (including the one that came) that 88 wants to call off another 3800 chips on.

Again, if UTG planned to push on any flop with 2 clubs, he should've raised more preflop, increasing the credibility of his semi-bluff and likely keeping it heads up). The push isn't awful in and of itself, given the situation he now finds himself in, but check-folding might have been better. Once UTG pushes, I think BTN should consider laying it down and waiting for a better spot. He's only getting about 5 to 3 on his call and he's on the wrong end of a coinflip against any overcard clubs (and that's ruling out the possibility that UTG has an overpair).

[Prickly Pete]

Ok, I'll amend my response Rocket, since I responded when their were no suits (I had figured an irrelevant rainbow flop).

Your UTG play isn't awful, but I don't blame button for calling. The all-in overbet in these games often screams out "I don't have a made hand yet." As it turns out, your draw made you a slight favorite.

[Prickly Pete]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that neither played it very well, but I wanted to point out in response that the big stack doesn't even really want to knock this player out. Sure, he'll pick up a ton of chips, and that might be reason enough to consider calling, but knocking the opponent out will put everyone into the money and will make blind stealing significantly more difficult from here on out.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're way overplaying the bubble bully theory. If button thinks he's got the best hand here (debatable for sure), he's got to call. If he wins this hand, he wins over 6500 chips in the pot. There's no way he steals anywhere close to that much on the bubble.

Ok, now an aside rant... I'm assuming this is a Stars SNG (since it's 18 people), where the bubble is very much overblown. From 5th to 4th, you gain 10% in prize money, from 4th to 3rd you gain 10%, etc. Each jump in money is identical. I know in reality, people play differently on the bubble, but 4 left (or 3 or 2) is just as much of a bubble as 5 imo.