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10-12-2001, 02:13 AM
Playing some 15-30


I pick up black JJ in UTG+1


UTG folds, I raise. Weak player to my left calls. Unknown cutoff player calls. Big blind calls.


Flop is Kc 6s 3s. Big blind checks. I bet out. Weak player folds. The unknown player in cutoff raises. Big blind folds. I 3-bet and unknown calls.


Turn is Ac. I bet he calls.


River is 8c. I check, he bets and I call.


My question is: how often should I do this against an unknown player?


Any other comments on the hand are also welcome.

10-12-2001, 02:15 AM
Unknown player turned over Tc7c, so I took the pot with my JJ.

10-12-2001, 03:51 AM
How do you win this Pot? If I am reading your post correctly, he had a club flush, and you had a pair of Jacks.


Later,

CJ

10-12-2001, 04:32 AM
Unknown player turned over Ts7s, so I took the pot with my JJ.

10-12-2001, 04:54 AM
Fold when you get raised on the flop. The only thing he might have that you beat is a flush draw, but more usually he will have the king, and isn't going anywhere. If he isn't scared of a king high ragged flop against the preflop raiser, you should be scared of him.


After you reraise the flop and the ace comes on the turn, you should bet. No reason to stop representing the AA KK AK now. You might get him to lay a KQ or similar down if he is sensible.


On the river you are one bet from showdown and don't know anything about how the guy plays. Might as well call and find out if he's a bad player.

10-12-2001, 05:32 AM
Hey, you found out he's a terrible player (or at least has abyssmal preflop standards), and won a pot to boot. I usually find out a player is terrible after I lose a pot. /images/wink.gif


I think it's generally best to assume an unknown player is only slightly bad, until proven otherwise. You are usually going to find out if a player is terrible pretty quickly anyway, so you won't lose much when you are wrong with this assumption.


I still hate the check on the turn, followed closely by the not folding on the flop. The river is only worth a call because you don't know the guy; against a normal player you would lose even to the spade draw since it would usually be ace high (giving him a pair of aces on the turn) for him to have called your raise preflop.

10-12-2001, 06:05 AM
I don't like the way this hand was played. Unless the game is fairly tight, you are usually better off limping with two jacks in early position since its main value is to flop a set.


When your unknown opponent raises, he is representing a pair of kings. Now its true that he may not have it, but it is a logical hand for you to have since you raised coming in early. So when he makes the raise he should be aware that you may have a king (or better) and is thus less inclined to represent. So unless you know you are against a very aggressive player -- and in this case you don't -- you should probably fold.


I have no objection to your calling his flop bet and then checking and folding if he bets again on the turn. Note: you may catch a jack or he may not bet again. But it seems to me that the way you have played it should generally prove expensive.

10-12-2001, 06:08 AM
Aaron:


I suspect you are letting the results of the hand influence you. If you think it through, you are not in good shape by playing it the way you did.

10-12-2001, 07:33 AM
A few weeks ago, when replying to a post as to why you didn't raise,

when first in early position with pocket Kings,

you wrote something like that you would always raise in that spot with QQ.


Wouldn't JJ be more similar to QQ than to KK in this spot?

10-12-2001, 07:42 AM

10-12-2001, 08:30 AM
The difference doesn't have to do with comparing hands to each other. Look at it this way- like Mason said above, the main value with JJ is in flopping a set. If you raise and get 3 or 4 callers you are now not in a good spot since and A,K or Q will often cripple your hand on the flop. So "protecting" Jacks with a raise often ends up not being very effective. With Queens there are now only Aces and Kings that can hurt you on the flop so thinning the field is now critical and you will often get a favorable flop. I don't think I worded this very well but maybe you get the idea. I guess it comes down to this- with Jacks you want everybody out or you want everybody in, raising is likely to put you in the bad spot of having precisely 3 or 4 opponents. With queens you can afford to have a few people call your raise and still be in good shape, but it is way bad to let a few extra people in by limping instead of raising. Queens have enough initial value that you don't need to rely on its set value as much as you would with Jacks. Well this is a messy post, sorry!

10-12-2001, 09:56 AM
I'm not sure I understand why you wouldn't want to raise with jacks. If you have reasonable opponents I think it is particularly important to raise with jacks so that when an A or K flops you can represent it. Jacks seem too valuable to just limp in then check/fold when an overcard hits the flop. Also, your jacks are very likely the "best" hand before the flop, so don't you want to get more money in the pot when you have the best of it? I don't see how it can be incorrect to put in more money when you expect to have the best hand.

10-12-2001, 10:29 AM
He didn't hit runner runner. That was a mistake. He had 10,7 spades floping a flush draw. Bad call preflop by bad player but good raise on flop.


Yes you should raise with jj's. He probably won't get 3 or 4 opponents with a raise. He said it was a tight game. Even if he does, he stands to have the best hand and if flop comes badly now i can decide on the best coarse of action. Actually even more impotant to protect this hand than Q's. Once in awhile in a really snug game it might be worth limping to mix up your play a litlle. And you might get some money out of the blinds if they flop a pair.

10-12-2001, 01:36 PM
HFAP discusses JJ specifically pre-flop from early position. The advice is to raise in a tight game and call in a loose game. The situation that you don't want to end up in is having 2 or 3 opponents and being out of position.

10-12-2001, 03:14 PM
In the $15 - 30 game that I play in regularly I would say it's a mistake to assume you are beat by top pair or better every time you get raised on the flop.

In fact with only one overcard on the flop and an unknown opponent I think it's fair to reason that you still have the best hand.....maybe.........

I usually assume unknown players are bad until proven otherwise and I think it's worth looking this guy up to see how he plays for 2 reasons.

1 Your hand might be good

2 To help get a read on his play for the rest of the session.

I don't think I'd

play this hand so aggressively after the flop though- - I might 'give' him his free card by just calling his raise on the flop and then there is a good chance he'll check the turn behind me now -if he does not then that will help me all the more in reading his play in future hands as I'm calling here regardless.

On the river checking is also a good play to pick off a bet from the only hand you can beat as well as getting to see his hand too if he bets.

There are lots of opponents in $15 - 30 in my experience who will show down a hand like 55, 66, 77, 88 ,99 in this spot.

They will put you on AQ and raise the flop then even bet the turn when you show 'weakness' people will even do this with flush draws, it is often a profitable play to call down against the right opponent in similar spots IMO.

10-12-2001, 07:50 PM
That's more or less what I was thinking, Payoff.


But how often should I, staring at that flop with that size pot, look him up the way I did?

10-12-2001, 07:53 PM
So I guess you're saying, even with an unknown opponent, I should be playing this way 0% of the time? But I wonder if this would make me too predictable?

10-12-2001, 10:01 PM
It might make you a better player. Deviating from the "correct" play (the play with maximum mathematical expectation against typical players) will cost you money in the long run, unless you know your opponents. Only if you know your opponents can you assume they're not typical, and then you'll be able to adjust your strategy against them.


Bob J.

10-13-2001, 02:53 AM