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View Full Version : Crosspost: How can i call this? I hate when i do this.


bernie
06-09-2004, 09:55 AM
Originally posted in mid stakes.

This hand reminded me alot about GuyOnTilt's old thread about folding when you know you're beaten regardless of pot size. I fully agreed with his take on it. Putting it in practice? Well, sometimes I just have to see what i already know is there. A losing hand by me.

Not sure how much discussion this may cause, if any, but i'll give it a shot. This is more about trusting your read than the play of AA. This just happens to be the example in practice.

Included are my thoughts during the hand. Still not sure if this is good to include, but i figure you should have the same info i have. Thoughts on this are also welcome.

Muck 10-20 full game.

I open raise in EP with AA, Folded to sb who 3 bets, i cap, sb calls.

SB: Loose player, can chase, but a tight raiser/3 bettor. He's low on chips, but he'd have to really bet a couple streets to go all in. I dont think this is a typical, 'just get all in' hand for him. He has a hand. A typical looser players tight sb 3 bet hand.

Flop Q J 4 Two tone. not my tones.

sb checks, i bet he calls rather slowly/deliberately. I smell a rat. I know this way that he calls. The way he puts his chips in. Ive played with this player alot and tonight i have a great line on him. He would bet out/maybe c/r with a top pair/2 pair. Against me, he may go for the c/r since he knows i tend to be aggressive when im in. Especially after i capped preflop. He knows ill bet if checked to on the flop. Anyways, if he has those, id have heard from him. A draw? Given his narrow range of hands he'd play like this preflop, the draw is negligible. Remote possibility at best.

Turn some blank piece of crap.

sb checks. He checks like he's waiting for me to bet. I can just see me getting checkraised here. i check. I think he has a set. So much so I almost say so out loud, 'nice set, (name)'. It's that clear in my head.

River T no flush.

sb bets out quickly. He seems to not want to miss another bet that he missed on the turn when he missed his c/r.

Here's the thing...What can i beat that he'd have? If my read is a little off, the only other hand he'd play this way would be AK. KK is the only possibility that i could beat. The only one. He wouldnt be 3 betting preflop with AJ or worse. He would not bet a J on the end here. It has to be stronger than that since i played it somewhat like AK myself. Which correlates a little doubt about him having KK. Though it is possible. He'd be less likely to bet KK than a set or better here if he held it. Though he could still do it.

I think have an easy fold here. BUT i called, like a typical mope that ignores a beautiful read and still blows the bet.

He shows QQ.

Pisses me off when i do this. It's not much, only 1BB, but it can add up. Read a guy like a book and still pay him off. Dammit.

anyways,

Thoughts/comments/related stories are welcome.

b

Al Schoonmaker
06-10-2004, 03:31 AM
As Dan Negreanu and others have repeatedly pointed out, limit hold'em is not a game of great laydowns on the river. All you lost is one BB. Don't worry about it.
"Bad calls" on the river have often been called "peace of mind calls." If you lose one BB, oh well. If you make a bad fold and lose a large pot, it can put you on tilt.
Regards,
Al

mtdurham
06-10-2004, 04:14 AM
I wouldn't beat yourself up over this. Look at the hand positively. You made the correct read and you accomplished one of two things:

A) You saved two bets on the river (bet, and call the checkraise)
or
B) You saved yourself one bet on the river and got to see the river card (which you wouldnt have seen if you had folded to the check-raise).

Folding on the river isn't a great habit to get into in limit hold'em.

Wyrm2
06-10-2004, 08:38 AM
I have to agree you shouldn't lose any sleep over it. Remember, losing the whole pot is much worse. I folded the best hand on a 9BB pot last night, THAT is worth losing sleep over /images/graemlins/smile.gif

bernie
06-10-2004, 09:36 AM
Remember, it's not primarily about 'this' hand, but hands where you have the read, a fantastic read, and ignore it. Where even if you were able to put it into a % that you may win, it would be a bad call given the pot size. Even if it's a big pot, but you call anyways. It's one thing to do it to 'confirm' a read, but another to not trust ones' read after you've confirmed your feel for this player on prior hands/sessions.

To me, it's giving money away.

I wish i could find a link to GoT's post on this, or find his post in general. It was a good one.

I understand the 'piece of mind' calls, and agree with you there, but there is also something to be said about calling this when you know you're beat. In this hand, looking back, even game theory and bayes theorm tells me to fold this given my read. It's that obvious.

b

btw...This isn't keeping me up at night thinking about it. It just tends to gnaw at me for a day or so. I thought it'd be interesting to throw it out there. Primarily because I'm not trusting my read in that spot those times when it comes up. If I use my own 'gag reflex' rule, meaning if the guy showed me a lesser hand and I would have to go to the can to yak because I should've called, my gut wouldnt flinch.

bernie
06-10-2004, 09:39 AM
I know it isn't a major leak. And there is something to be said about saving the 2 bets on the turn, but i thought it would be fun to explore.

It's also not like i'm going to go out of my way to try and make a great laydown. That isnt the point. Just to clarify. Just denial of a read.

thanks again...

b

BusterStacks
06-11-2004, 11:44 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Here's the thing...What can i beat that he'd have?

[/ QUOTE ]

Come to the .5/1 games. He's got a pair of 3's!

Legend27
06-12-2004, 05:57 PM
You played that hand perfectly based on the read you had on your opponet.

Morbo
06-12-2004, 10:14 PM
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar till:</font><hr />
Remember, it's not primarily about 'this' hand, but hands where you have the read, a fantastic read, and ignore it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you ignored it, you did a great check on the turn.

bernie
06-13-2004, 02:14 PM
Except for the river. Im not letting myself off the hook that easily. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

b

illunious
06-13-2004, 06:50 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I wish i could find a link to GoT's post on this, or find his post in general. It was a good one.

[/ QUOTE ]

is this it? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/favlinker.php?Cat=&amp;Entry=24217&amp;F_Board=smallholdem &amp;Thread=560235&amp;partnumber=1&amp;postmarker=)

bernie
06-14-2004, 12:56 AM
His post about the 'results and things.' I thought this was an independent thread. Not a self-response buried in his own thread.

Lots of great stuff in this thread. Read this thread, then the hand i posted, and you'll see why im hard on myself for this call.

Thanks for finding that thread. God knows how much stuff you must've weeded through to get it.

b