Who doesnt make these value bets?

[James282]

Assume typical opponents in Hand 1.

UTG open limps, James raises from the CO with KcQd. BB and UTG come along.

Flop is J /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Checked to James and he bets. BB calls, UTG folds.

Turn is the 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif Checked to James and he bets. BB calls.

River is the Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif Checked to James and he bets.


Hand 2: James has AsTs. Everyone limps to James on the button and he raises. All call.

Flop comes Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Checked to James who bets. Blinds both fold 3 others call.

Turn is a 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Checked to James who bets and everyone calls.

River is the 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Checked to James and he bets.
-James

[stripsqueez]

for no reason that is apparent to me right now i check the first one and bet the second

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[PassiveCaller]

#1 - I was waivering back on forth on this one but with a typical opponent he still calls with worse hands and you can safely fold to a reraise.
#2 - I'd bet it and have in similiar situations

[bvaughn]

I don't see much value in the first hand. The only positive value in a bet is if the BB folds a baby spade. Do you really see the BB calling with something you beat, therefore giving your bet +EV? I'm at 5/10 and still learning the SH game, but I just don't see it.

Second hand, I do think you have a value bet, but I would get a little sick to my stomach to see more than one caller.

[soda]

Against typical opponents, I check the first and bet the second.

soda

[chezlaw]

I'd generally bet the first one though I think its close, his not folding his pair after calling all the way with it. Fold to a raise.

I'd always bet the second. I'd expect top pair to have bet or raised at some point so 2nd pair top kicker should be good and will get called by worse pairs/kickers. I always ignore backdoor flushes until told otherwise.

[James282]

I think a bet is a must in both cases. When my opponent calls the turn, he either has a pair or a flush draw - but it is unlikely that he would draw to a baby flush draw IMO. When he then checks the river it seems like he has a pair, and in this game, people just don't fold a pair once they've gotten to the river heads up. It's an easy fold to a raise but I think this bet is essential - top pair 2nd kicker with no reason to think the enemy will fold a pair or that he has a spade.

In hand two my hand was good - I posted this one because I often see people checking behind rivers like this because "with all those opponents, someone must have the queen or the flush!" Glad to see that most of you agree with me /images/graemlins/smile.gif
-James

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
It's an easy fold to a raise but I think this bet is essential - top pair 2nd kicker with no reason to think the enemy will fold a pair or that he has a spade

[/ QUOTE ]

hmmm - i like bluff raising the river a little in this spot

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Apocalypse]

i think your second valuebet is very limit-dependent. Where i would check this behind on a 1/2-table, i'd valuebet it at 5/10, because what i consider typical players are a world apart between these limits.

1/2:

loves calling toppair all the way down
loves checkraising flushes on the river

5/10:

protects toppair with all means necessary
bets out on most flushes since they've all started out at 1/2 and learned that the aggressor often checks through after a third suit hits the river where they call a bet.

(nice counterstrategy against good valuebetting players: start cr'sing the flushes again /images/graemlins/cool.gif )