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View Full Version : Good play / Bad Luck or bad play?


10-09-2001, 03:57 PM
Fairly loose 15-30 home game. I have QQ UTG and I raise. Two to my left calls(LP). He's a loose player who frequently calls raises w/ weaker hands(QT and better, all pocket pairs, suited A's), fold to the button who calls and blinds fold. Pot : 7.5SB.


Flop : J23 rainbow. I bet, LP calls, button folds. LP is the kind of player who will put a raiser on big cards and call down any pair if lower cards flop. He calls too much and but does bluff enough that I call him down sometimes. Pot : 9.5 SB.


Turn : 8. Board : J238 rainbow. I check. I'm thinking that his most likely hand is a weaker jack. J10, QJ, J9s something like that or either bigger cards that missed or a pocket pair. If he's got bigger cards or a pair, he's got 2 or 3 outs so I won't lose often. I felt 100% sure that he'd bet the Jack and then pay off my check-raise and bet on the river giving me 3 BB's, instead of 0 if he had big cards, 2 if he had a jack. I think he'd pay me off all the way w/ pocket pair if an A or K didn't hit. He checks behind. No terrible I'm thinking. I'll get called by his pocket pair on the river.


River : A. Board: J238A rainbow. He doesn't look thrilled about the A. I bet b/c I'd call since he could bet a jack now since I checked on the turn, thinking I had TT, 99, or similar. He calls and shows me A2s, which he said he'd have folded for a bet on the turn.


Any comments?

10-09-2001, 04:22 PM
Bad play on the turn. If you had AA or floppped two pair or better, it's not a bad play to check the turn occassionally in this situation. With QQ there's just too many cards that hurt your hand.


I also wouldn't bet the river. You already know he doesn't have a J and ,since you checked the turn, the A is a scare card for him. He's unlikely to pay you off here with a worse hand, and if he got lucky abnd made aces up you will be raised. Since he bluffs, give him a chance to bluff the river. Check and call.

10-09-2001, 04:23 PM
Well, you spilled the beans by telling us what happened on the river. Pretty tough for someone to now say you should have checked and let him draw out on you :-). Might be better next time to save the results until you get some responses.


Anyway, if he's the kind who calls you down with just about anything, why not bet the turn? He may have a weak jack, but most players would raise the flop with any jack. Why give him a free card to catch a river card that could beat you?


I'm not sure I believe he would have folded for the turn bet, but I sure would have bet the turn. Were I him, I sure would have raised the river too.


"He doesn't look thrilled about the A." Guys who do usually don't have one.

10-09-2001, 05:03 PM
Rookie,


You gotta bet the turn, giving free a free card when he could easily have one or even two over-cards is a mistake, if he had raised you on the flop,then maybe a check-raise is in order, but I'd rather my pair be bigger (less over-cards, just in case, as was pointed out above) and if this player could ever raise the flop as a semi-bluff (whether a good one or not) again you risk the dreaded free card. And if he just happened to flop a set, it should cost YOU one more bet. Most of the time, its better to make sure of one bet, rather than trying to make an extra bet at the risk of the pot against a player on whom your "deceptive play" is lost anyway.


Mike

10-09-2001, 05:04 PM
Rookie-


I think you should bet the turn against this type of player. You say he'd call you even with a pair of eights. Would he bet a pair of eights behind you? And even if he did, would he call your check/raise? Although you ended up being right about the number of outs he had (3), you still miscalculated. With any pair and a kicker (that doesn't contain a queen), he'd have 5 outs to beat you...


On the river, I understand your compulsion to get in a bet especially after checking the turn. But I think checking should at least be considered once the ace arrives. This might be a spot where you'll only get called by a better hand, yet might get a worse one to bet if you check, while there will also be times a better hand might check. (I'm not sure if I said that last part right). Good luck.

10-09-2001, 05:13 PM

10-09-2001, 05:14 PM

10-09-2001, 05:44 PM
Kevin makes an important point about the river bet. A lot of players miss a check - raise on 4th, then bet the river without analyzing the situation carefully. I think this is what happened here.


If the check-raise would have worked if the opponent had a jack, he doesn't have one. This makes the ace more likely to hit him, and less likely he calls your bet with a small pair. On the other hand, he may conclude you are weak after checking twice and bet a weaker hand (this does not mean your call is automatic, though it's close).


Dan Z.

10-10-2001, 05:07 AM
Rookie,


I think this is a pretty brutal turn and river play.


You are utg and have bad position, therefore a straightforward strategy is in order. Against this type of opponenet, there is no need to get fancy. Bet the turn, check the river, simple play really.


If he plays as you describe, I would guess he would not have folded the A2 with a pair and overcard for a turn bet so you would have lost more money if you had played it correctly. However, this is not about one hand, but the correct play long term and in this case, going for the check-raise on the turn, and then betting the river after the overcard hits are definite mistakes, regardless of the result.


Just some thoughts...


Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D)


PS. In the future, I might suggest posting the result in a seperate post, possibly after a 12 hour period or so. I personally prefer to respond without knowing the result. Good post with good descriptions.

10-10-2001, 12:08 PM
Thanks for the responses. I was a little steamed at losing about 400 to this guy heads up the previous night after the game broke. He caught the deck and tortured me. Thus I think I wanted to 'punish' him for extra bets and ended up playing poorly. The turn bet is clearly the better play as it will get me two bets from his weak hands, maybe a raise from a good jack letting me re-raise for possibly 4 bets(including river).


Another great point was the auto-bet on the river after I missed the check-raise. I did fire pretty quickly since I was going to call, but since the A hit, he couldn't beat AK, AQ anymore w/ his small pairs and would prolly lay those down so only A's or better call.


Thanks again.