Axs when an ace drops [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Dieter01

06-08-2004, 10:04 PM

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, Button checks.

Turn: (3.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (7 players)
SB bets, BB folds, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls.

River: (9.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, SB calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB
Main Pot: 11.50 BB, between SB and Hero. > Pot won by SB (11.50 BB).

Results in white below: 
SB shows 9s Ad (one pair, aces).
Hero shows 3h Ah (one pair, aces).
Outcome: SB wins 11.50 BB. 

Hmm... I think I know how I SHOULD have played this, but would like some confirmation...

I was going to check/fold this flop. Looking back, that was probably wrong. With the backdoor flush there I should have gone out betting and rather step carefully aftewards...

Anyways, it gets checked through which I interpret to be "fair chance the ace is good"... Is raising the turn still crazy?

I think this a typical "if you get called you are beaten" type river. I could get called by a low flush and plenty of other hands. I think I am obligated to check this through. Right?

bisonbison

06-08-2004, 10:06 PM

Yeah, I'd bet the flop, bet the turn, bet the river and expect to be split or be shown T8o often enough to make it worthwhile.

JudgeRW

06-08-2004, 10:26 PM

I bet the flop, call a raise (and if raised go into check/call mode). Like you said, you hit top pair (with kicker issues) and you do have a backdoor flush draw. Worth a bet, but be wary.

That turn card is a miss for you (imo) and when bet at, I would call here. A LOT of micro players will check through the flop when they "hit", because they think they're making a good "play". When the possible flush fell as well, I think calling down here is right.

Anyway, I bet the flop, the turn, and the river (if not bet in to or raised at any point). If bet into or raised, I'm calling down.

Bill Smith

06-08-2004, 10:41 PM

I find myself being repeatedly sucked out in this situation, and the 1 time out of 5 I don't call it down, a pair of tens wins the showdown.

Regardless of the advice of Noted Poker Authority Ed Miller, I think you have to let the pot go with 7 players seeing the flop. Take that as weak-tight advice from a person with < 10k hands and down 40 BB on the day. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Ed Miller

06-09-2004, 01:43 AM

Regardless of the advice of Noted Poker Authority Ed Miller, I think you have to let the pot go with 7 players seeing the flop. Take that as weak-tight advice from a person with < 10k hands and down 40 BB on the day.

I think I'd fold on the turn as well. That's a bad card, and the bet comes from a bad spot. It would be a totally different story if the pot had been raised preflop.

PassiveCaller

06-09-2004, 01:47 AM

Just remember 3 kickah! Yes I like a fold on the turn for the reasons Ed notes.

WarmonkEd

06-09-2004, 06:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Regardless of the advice of Noted Poker Authority Ed Miller, I think you have to let the pot go with 7 players seeing the flop. Take that as weak-tight advice from a person with < 10k hands and down 40 BB on the day.

I think I'd fold on the turn as well. That's a bad card, and the bet comes from a bad spot. It would be a totally different story if the pot had been raised preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

How specifically would your play change had it been raised preflop?

Ed Miller

06-09-2004, 08:23 PM

How specifically would your play change had it been raised preflop?

I wouldn't fold anymore. I'd probably raise instead. Checking the flop also becomes a much worse play. The extra money in the pot forces you to stay with the hand.

WarmonkEd

06-09-2004, 09:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How specifically would your play change had it been raised preflop?

I wouldn't fold anymore. I'd probably raise instead. Checking the flop also becomes a much worse play. The extra money in the pot forces you to stay with the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok. So, you are raising to kick people out?

The problem I have in "large pot" situations is:

How do I KNOW that the pot size is worth it?

The odds you are getting should be greater than the odds of you winning to make this play +EV, right? In the above hand, if it was raised pf (by the SB), there would be 7 BB in the pot at the turn. SB bets so you are getting 8:2 immediate odds if you raise. This of course doesn't take into the action after you and on the river, so you may be getting nice implied odds at the end.

BUT, in this hand you have top pair/crappy kicker with a 3 flush. How do you know when your hand's "good enough." How do you judge when you raise, and when you just fold (if at all)?

And, would you want to bet the flop in this hand if raised PF?

Thanks for any help you can give.

edit: Are decisions like these ENTIRELY dependent on your opponents? If SB was a maniac and everyone weak tight, of course you would raise to try to isolate. But what about the marginal situations, where you just sat down and have no real read or you're just not sure?

edit2: man, I sure do have a lot of "?'s" in this post :P