View Full Version : Weak tight or just right?
NotMitch
06-08-2004, 09:58 PM
Last hand of the first round of a Party SnG all important stacks are about T800, blinds 10/15 I'm in the BB with 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. 3 limpers and I check. Pot is T60.
Flop is 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7 : /images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB bets 60, I raise to T200, folded to the SB who calls. Pot is T460
Turn is the 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, quite possibly the worst card in the deck for me. SB checks, I check behind.
River is the 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif, SB bets T125, I call. A little weak or just about right? Results later.
gergery
06-09-2004, 01:50 AM
Close call, but i fold. Thet set of hands weaker hands that bets this is likely smaller than the set of hands that beats you, with the way its played (at least at my 20-2s)
Better hands - the flushes and full houses
Weaker hands - any 6, 7, overpair, bad players doing a variety of slowplay things on flop
More importantly, you might win but are those 125 chips likely to work harder for you in a different hand? (i think yes)
But if you were willing to call this now with the flushes and fullhouses out, why not bet into it on the turn to represent trips or the flush yourself? If he doesn't have anything he'll be terrified you do. You'll know where you stand for sure then instead of guessing like now.
Grivan
06-09-2004, 02:19 AM
Folding is quite possibl the worst action here. Its 125 to call to win a 600 chip pot. I think you are winning enough to justify it. I think after you check on the turn you have to call the river. I probably would of bet on the turn though.
I would have bet the pot on the turn.
The only worry of the 6H on the turn is the flush. Lets say he has 2 hearts in his hand. He makes a small bet on the flop, you raise, he just calls. Then he makes the flush on the turn.
Would he check? I would expect most players to bet right out here. I think very few players would slow player their hand here, as you've shown strength and are likely to call.
I think you've gotta bet here on the turn. A check allows him to draw to the straight, for a split, or flush.
AA suited
06-09-2004, 09:01 AM
if i just called and lost, i would only have 460 chips. i would rather push and try to represent nut flush/boat.
if i lost, i just start a new SnG instead of wasting 1/2 hr with a crippled stack. this of course assumes low $ SnG at Party.
NotMitch
06-09-2004, 09:04 AM
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I would have bet the pot on the turn.
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The pot is T460, I have about T600, so any pot size bet is a push. If I push do I get a better hand to fold or a worse hand to call? I'm not sure I do. And if I turned a flush (or a full house) into a flop raiser, I'm going to check it almost everytime.
NotMitch
06-09-2004, 09:06 AM
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if i just called and lost, i would only have 460 chips. i would rather push and try to represent nut flush/boat.
if i lost, i just start a new SnG instead of wasting 1/2 hr with a crippled stack. this of course assumes low $ SnG at Party.
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That is one of the worst replies I have ever read here. Having T460 with blinds at 10/15 is not crippled, and suggesting just giving up is lousy advice.
Jonathan
06-09-2004, 09:11 AM
1. Raising $200 is OK but I would prefer to push here.
2. Checking on the turn is TERRIBLE!!!!! How can you give your opponent a free card here? A pot sized bet is called for, but since this is now over 50% of your stack, pushing may be better.
3. As you played it, a call on the end is absolutely correct.
Don't give your opponent free cards. Don't be greedy...be happy if he folds on the flop and you take down $120.
Jonathan
unfrgvn
06-09-2004, 09:19 AM
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The pot is T460, I have about T600, so any pot size bet is a push. If I push do I get a better hand to fold or a worse hand to call?
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I think there are many worse hands that will pay you off. Any 8, any 6, and if this is a low buy in possibly any 3. The only better hand that you might get to fold is a baby flush.
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And if I turned a flush (or a full house) into a flop raiser, I'm going to check it almost everytime.
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Me too. I think I would have played it the same as you. I have tried to play smaller pots recently to try to reduce my variance. If I call and lose in this spot I'm down to 460. I'm not happy, but I can come back from there. I would sure hate to push and lose to a 6 5 full house or A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif flush.
NotMitch
06-09-2004, 09:22 AM
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1. Raising $200 is OK but I would prefer to push here.
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Betting T750 into a a pot with T120 is not good poker.
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2. Checking on the turn is TERRIBLE!!!!! How can you give your opponent a free card here? A pot sized bet is called for, but since this is now over 50% of your stack, pushing may be better.
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A free card to hit what? If he was on hearts he got there, if he had a set he turned a boat. Obviously giving a free card on the flop is a huge mistake but since all the draws got there on the turn what draw am I worried about? I'm likely way ahead or way behind. As I said in another reply I think a push gets called by better hands and worse hands fold.
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3. As you played it, a call on the end is absolutely correct.
Don't give your opponent free cards. Don't be greedy...be happy if he folds on the flop and you take down $120.
Jonathan
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Yes the call on the end is easy. But I still strongly disagree with your flop and turn thinking.
37offsuit
06-09-2004, 09:22 AM
I think he would have tested you more with the boat I'm guessing he's got the straight or the flush. I don't like betting the turn. You're not going to get to show down if he reraises you again.
His T60 bet could have been anything, probe with over cards or an over pair, top pair top kicker or betting the straight or flush draw. The 6 of hearts is a bad card. When he checks the turn I don't mind you checking to see what he does on the river. You still have position.
It's possible he thinks his overpair is now good, thus the smallish bet. If you bet the turn and he calls, you're in the same position as you are now, so I don't mind the call down with the nut straight.
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I would have bet the pot on the turn.
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The pot is T460, I have about T600, so any pot size bet is a push. If I push do I get a better hand to fold or a worse hand to call? I'm not sure I do. And if I turned a flush (or a full house) into a flop raiser, I'm going to check it almost everytime.
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Sorry, it didn't pay attention to the stack sizes. I would have pushed.
I don't think 'a better hand to fold or a worse hand to call' is only really applicable when all the cards are out. Most likely, you're going to get a worse hand to fold. But with more cards to come, you don't want a worse hand to draw to a better one. You can't give infinite odds to someone with an Ah in his hand.
And there's a good chance a worse made hand will call - like A7 or A6. And in low limits I see a lot of people calling here with a flush or straight draw. So if you get a call, you still might be good.
There are still lots of draws out there (trips to boat, flush, straight to split or beat you) that you don't want to offer for free.
NotMitch
06-09-2004, 09:25 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Last hand of the first round of a Party SnG all important stacks are about T800, blinds 10/15 I'm in the BB with 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. 3 limpers and I check. Pot is T60.
Flop is 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 7 : /images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB bets 60, I raise to T200, folded to the SB who calls. Pot is T460
Turn is the 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, quite possibly the worst card in the deck for me. SB checks, I check behind.
River is the 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif, SB bets T125, I call. A little weak or just about right? Results later.
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SB shows A /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif for the rivered 8 high straight and MHIG.
37offsuit
06-09-2004, 09:32 AM
Obviously, this result was favorable, which is why I think you call the under bet on the end. Of course, quite a few times you'll get burned in this situation by a better hand. I guess with the pot size and the end bet size, what you have to ask yourself is, "hey self, will I win this 1 out of 4 times?"
The answer at lower limits, of course, is yes.
Prickly Pete
06-09-2004, 10:45 AM
NotMitch, I think you played this hand well. Given the scary nature of how it played out, you could do a lot worse. Once the turn scare card hits, it seems this hand turns into a "Worse hands will fold, better hands will stay" hand if you bet it. I was thinking something like 87 for SB, but 56 could fit too. I've seen a 56 played like this by SB and your cautious play keeps you alive.
As for some of the other responses... folding to the river bet is hideous. And betting strong on the turn (allin) seems to be asking for a call from those who beat you.
LOL!! Pushing here is NOT an option! /images/graemlins/ooo.gif This would be a despaired WRONG push as we see to often in small buy-in sit and go. He probably already as a Flush or a boat so whats the point of pushing? Try to make him fold a small flush? Not really...
I would have checked on the turn and called the river bet knowing Im probably beaten by a full house. (I think he had a set on the flop because he called your flop raise that was too high for a flush draw...). Another way I could have played it is to bet the same amount (T200) on the turn and fold if he raises me. And hope for a check/check on the river. Some player still hope for check/raise on the river.. I try this play sometimes when I think a check/check on the turn could induce a bluff on the river(That I dont want him to do) if he didnt hit anything or he would also bet on the river if he had a boat/flush so I never know if I must call a big bet by him on the river. But maybe this would be a bad play so any comment would be appreciated.
PrayingMantis
06-09-2004, 11:42 AM
I think that the toughest part of playing this hand is simply the Party stack sizes. It leaves you SO little room to play, even when the blinds are on first level, that you clearly must take a decision for your entire tournament life on the turn here.
As I see it - you played it well, with the options you had.
Few comments: something was mentioned here about pushing on the flop, and you replied that betting 750 into a 120 pot is bad poker. Well, I think many situations (especially in SNGs), should not be analyzed in terms of good or bad poker. IF you believe there's a good chance an opponent will call here with flush draw, TPTK, 2p or set - well, pushing is indeed a good move, and therfore - good poker. I was experimenting (right word?) lately with huge over-bets (in mid level buy-ins), when I have a monster, or a semi monster. I was shocked again and again to see people call my all-in with draws, slow-played over pairs, etc, i.e, hands that were practically drawing dead against me. Many players interpret over-bets as a bluffs. AND many weak players cannot let go of nut flush draws, for instance. The combination of these two, make pushing with strong hands, to induce a brave call, a move to think about, especially with short stacks. I'm not saying it's best or optimal, but it has its merits. It should certainly be a part, even a small part, of your arsenal, IMO.
Anyway, I think your flop raise was completely fine. I do not see a good reason to bet the turn other than all-in, which is bad. The river call is probably good against the players you're playing against.
Only some thoughts.
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LOL!! Pushing here is NOT an option! /images/graemlins/ooo.gif This would be a despaired WRONG push as we see to often in small buy-in sit and go. He probably already as a Flush or a boat so whats the point of pushing? Try to make him fold a small flush? Not really...
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I don't really understand why you think he already has a flush or boat. In a small buyin SNG (this wasn't specified in the Q) players could have a whole host of hands - TPTK, low straight, draw to a straight, overpair, or even just 2 overcards.
That check on the turn would indicate weakness to me, not slowplaying a big hand. If he's got a full or flush, would he really slow play on the turn here, what with you raising him on the flop?
Perhaps it's a difference in players (I play on ladbrokes) but I really don't fancy him to have a big hand here.
No a bet isn't trying to get him to fold a flush. I bet because there are still a lot of draws out there which I don't want him to have for free (filling up 2 pair, straight draw to split, flush draw). If he calls, there's loads of hands I could beat him with (lower straight, trips, 2 pair, oven overpair). In fact, players just seem to love calling when they're on a draw to a flush with 1 card to come.
I think on the turn you've got the best hand. Chances are he'll fold with a worse hand with a draw. This isn't too bad as you don't fancy to get more money out of this hand on the river. If he calls, there's still a chance he's got a worse made-hand, or he's drawing. As it turns out this is exactly what he had.
(I'm presuming this is a low-buy SNG).
EverettKings
06-09-2004, 12:22 PM
Actually, I would have pushed the river /images/graemlins/smile.gif. Good players are not calling on the flop with just a flush or straight draw (though he proved not to be so great), and most anyone would have reraised a set. I would have figured him to have 87, or MAYBE 2 pair.
It's fine to check behind on the turn, so that he doesn't trap you with a boat, but his weak bet on the river makes it all to clear that you have him: it's a scared bet. So push: you're best, and he's not laying down that 8 high straight.
Prickly Pete
06-09-2004, 12:29 PM
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it's a scared bet. So push: you're best, and he's not laying down that 8 high straight.
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People also like to make "scared bets" with boats & nut flushes. There's no way to know you're best here. At least not enough to risk your tourney life on a value raise.
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Actually, I would have pushed the river /images/graemlins/smile.gif. Good players are not calling on the flop with just a flush or straight draw (though he proved not to be so great), and most anyone would have reraised a set. I would have figured him to have 87, or MAYBE 2 pair.
It's fine to check behind on the turn, so that he doesn't trap you with a boat, but his weak bet on the river makes it all to clear that you have him: it's a scared bet. So push: you're best, and he's not laying down that 8 high straight.
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I disagree. Most of the time he's only going to call with a better hand, and fold a worse. Perhaps in this specific case he won't lay down his 8-high straight, but that's probably the only hand he wouldn't.
PrayingMantis
06-09-2004, 12:38 PM
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Good players are not calling on the flop with just a flush or straight draw
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Assuming an unknown player who plays against you on a low buy-in (or middle) SNGs, is a good player - - this by itself is a bad approach. Unless he has PROVED differently: a typical player is a bad one, and he'll sure make this call here, IMO.
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and most anyone would have reraised a set.
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People love to slowplay flopped sets.
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but his weak bet on the river makes it all to clear that you have him: it's a scared bet.
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This is EXACTLY what the "typical" player wants you to think when he has you beaten. This is definitely not the place to fall for it. This is certainly not the spot for a raise.
NotMitch
06-09-2004, 12:58 PM
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it's a scared bet. So push: you're best, and he's not laying down that 8 high straight.
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People also like to make "scared bets" with boats & nut flushes. There's no way to know you're best here. At least not enough to risk your tourney life on a value raise.
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Agreed. SB's line looks a lot like mine would with 77 in his shoes.
The reason I put him on the boat or a flush is because he limp preflop so I put him on a poketpair or AXsuited. And then when he call a raise on the flop theres a light that turn on saying that maybe he has a set or a baby flush. So when the 6h come I think im beaten... I know this is not 100% accurate but im sure this saved me some money in the long run... And furthermore if this is a low buy in (weaker players) I wait for a better oppotunity because I hope I will be able to outplay him later. This is my opinion but maybe im wrong so any comment would be appreciated.
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