Two interesting hands

One hand, I believe I played well. The other, I think I made mistakes but I don't know where.


Hand #1

One limper who plays a little tight after the flop.


I raise in the cutoff with 77. An absolute fish calls in the big blind.


Flop comes JTJ.


Big blind checks. Limper bets into me. I am quite sure this means he has a ten because with a jack he'd almost certainly check-raise, possibly even waiting until the turn. This is based on my read of his play during the past hour.


I raise. The fish calls, so I know he's drawing, possibly with only an ace high, probably with a straight draw.


The limper who bet out looks pained and calls.


I know where I stand. I am facing a T and a draw. If I can push the ten out, I might have this hand hold up against the draw. The pot is now big enough that I need to do something to win. Then it hits me. The limper is a little tight and not a great hand reader. If I bet and the fish calls, the limper will have to release, knowing that his ten can't beat two players. I will use the fish to squeeze out the player with the best hand.


I bet, fish calls, limper folds.


River is a blank. Check check. My 77 beats KQo.


Hand #2:

I have two black tens on the button. A decent player (with some big holes but not a complete fish) open raises from middle position. The cutoff, a terrible player, calls, I call, the blinds defend. 10 bets in the pot.


Flop comes 8 high with two hearts. The preflop raiser bets, the cutoff calls, I raise, the blinds fold, the preflop raiser calls, the cutoff calls. There's 16 small bets in the pot.


Turn comes a third small heart. It's possible the cutoff has a flush, but if he doesn't bet, he doesn't have it.


Check to me, I bet, preflop raiser calls, cutoff calls. River is a fourth heart.


Check around.


I lose to the preflop raiser who has two red threes. God only knows what the cutoff had.


I can't pinpoint what I did wrong but I feel like I could have done something to win this pot. It just doesn't feel well-played. Any suggestions? Preflop and flop play? At first I thought maybe I could have won it with a bet on the river, but anyone who will draw to a three-high flush is going to pay you off with it, right?


natedogg

Natedogg,


Well, people always say two hands are better than one, or something like that....

First hand: good reads, well played, though it seems that you may have too easily discounted the possibility that the blind had a J, unless he's always going to make some move with it on the flop, but I'd also rather bet the turn most of the time for the reasons that you did.


Second hand: What's decent about this guy's game? Is he thinking of calling the turn to hit a heart and hope it's good AND that you guys don't bet, cuz then he's gonna muck? That would be a lot of thought, though not too sound. Did he also pick up a gut-shot draw? That goes a little more ways toward explaining his call. I think you played this hand fine, they can't call with worse hands and if either of these guys have a heart they're going to call. Look at it this way, if I may, good check, you saved a bet, nope, not as much fun as winning a pot...take some satisfaction anyway.


Mike

Hand #1: Well, if I'm the limper, and I have a ten, I'm not going to get squeezed out by a bet and a call. I wouldn't put you on a jack, raising on the flop, and I couldn't put the fish on a jack since he just called the turn. Maybe limper had an underpair as well. I like the fact that you had a plan, but I wonder if other thinks it was dangerous with 77. What if an A,K,Q,T,9 or 8 comes on the turn? (You didn't say what came on the turn.)


Hand #2: I would have played the hand just about the same. I might have 3-bet pre-flop, but the hand plays out the same afterwards, except that they both check to your flop bet and call. I hate calling raises pre-flop, my habit is to pump or dump. On the river, one would think one of them had to have a medium high heart to call you down with if you bet, even when they both checked in front of you.

If you were to look at the second hand in retrospect, you could say that you could have increased your chances of winning the hand by waiting until the turn to raise (as now, it would look to the bettor that he is drawing dead with his small flush draw whereas the way the hand played out, he is more likely to think (wishfully I might add) that his three of hearts might be good if he caught a fourth heart).


But that's results oriented. I think you played it just right and got unlucky. C'est la vie.


BTW, it must be nice to play against players such as the cut-off who are oh so readable.


On the first hand, the squeeze play is an effective one but in general, the read that you generally get when the bb coldcalls two bets on the flop is that he has a Jack (as opposed to a draw). That said, given that you raised the flop (which is debatable), you probably should bet the turn for the reasons you gave. Of course, if you get checkraised, you can simply fold.


As for the flop raise, I think it is debatable. For one thing, you can't count on the bb having a draw and then calling 2 bets cold and then allowing you to pull off a turn squeeze play on the flop bettor.


Usually, what happens is that the limper will call your raise and then call you again twice more so long as an Ace or King doesn't come off. Even if you plan to check the turn after raising the flop, the flop raise ain't very good given your 2 outer. Such a play would be much better if you had Ak/AQ giving you 10 outs.


I think, in general, you should just call the flop and then release on the turn (on this type of board). Now and then, you may want to call and then raise on the turn (to represent a Jack). BTW, the fact that you do this now and then makes calling the flop correct even when you intend to fold on the turn.


Finally, now and then, you may want to call the flop with a view to betting/raising when an Ace hits on the turn (as the other guy may well put you on Ak/AQ when you just call the flop).


In short, I say that your flop play may well have been right but it seems to me that your thought process on the flop may have been off.

I think you try to make to many super-genius plays. This is a term me and my friends use to describe a player who makes many out of line plays when they know they are beat to try to make people lay down better hands. It seems your looking to win every pot you play no matter what comes. That if you don't hit good you will try to play them off it. Not meaning to be mean. Just trying to help. Alot of players do this far too often. If you continue with hands on the flop it is good to be aggressive and attack. But there are also times to just throw your hand away and lose the minimum when you know you are beat.


This is desribing the first hand with the 7's. Too many things have to go right for you to win this pot. You first have too get the player with the 10 to laydown. Which more often than not will not happen unless a scare card came on the turn. They will not like it, but they will usually call and see what you have. Second the other player has to miss his draw where no matter what his straight draw is he will have around 10 to 14 outs twice to beat 77'S. You say the pot is too big on the turn to not to try to make a play to win the pot. Well it wasn't too big on the flop to let it go when you knew this guy had you beat. And it still isn't too big on the turn.


The 2nd hand I would have played the same way except I would have 3 bet preflop. Try to clear the blinds out and play against these 2 clowns with the best hand and position.

Not sure if you meant to respond to Natedogg.


On the 77 hand, I agree with you: You generally should be mucking (but I say on the turn and not on the flop). The other creative plays ought to be used but only rarely.

Sorry skp. Yes It was intended for natedogg.


As far as other creative plays. I agree. I'm not suggesting that you don't make creative plays. I just think you do them with hands that have alot more potential. Flush draws, straight draws. So if your not successful in trying to buy the pot you still have plenty of outs to catch.

"I think, in general, you should just call the flop and then release on the turn (on this type of board)."

That sounds to me like just throwing away a small bet (actually, 22/23 of a small bet). If he knows the bettor must have a T, why not just muck on the flop, rather than putting more money in the pot with the intention of folding?