Thin value raise on river

10/20 Hold'em.


This is the third hand I have played at the table, and it is my button. It is folded to the cutoff who limps. I limp with QsJs. The SB raises. This player had raised from the button in the last hand and played aggressively, but his hand was not shown down. The BB calls, as does the CO and myself. 4 players, 8 SBs.


Flop is AQ4r (none of my suit). The SB bets, BB calls, CO folds, and I call. 3 players, 11 SBs.


Turn in J, putting a two flush on board. SB bets, BB calls, I raise, and both call. 3 players, 8.5 BBs.


River is 2 (no flush possibilities). The SB checks and the BB bets. The BB is Asian around 30 yrs old whom I have never seen before. The button starts grumbling, making it clear that he thinks he has lost; I cannot tell whether or not he would make a crying overcall, though I strongly suspect that he will fold if I raise. Also, the BB bet very quickly when the 2 hit (for what that's worth). I think about it for a long time and eventually decide to raise.


Comments appreciated. I will post the results right now in a separate post.


-Dan

The button folded instantly and the BB called. Someone at the table said, "King ten obviously," and a couple of other players mumbled and nodded in agreement. I turned over my QJ and it was good. The BB did not show his hand.

Well I havent read your results so i am not gonna guess what people had, because if i guess right people will assume i am full of sh-t. Anyway, you should have raised perflop, the cutoff is indicating weakness by just limping, he made a lousy play preflop. When the small blind raises you need to concerned that he has some sort of value, people usually have significant strength when raising their blinds, even when the pot is short handed like this. Now when the BB calls that puts another potentially decent hand into the mix. You should fold here even though you are getting 11-1 and close the action. The Q is really the only card you wanna see as a J might not win it for you. Granted somebody may not have the Ace but even if they dont you could still be losing to a QK or be tied with a QJ. Both of these situations are no good. I think the order of this should go: fold- best, raise- maybe not terrible, call- bad idea.

Well the turn is better then nothing and now you have to go with it since you decided to call on the flop. I think raising is the good play.

Looks to me like raising the river is not such a good play, you wont get a better hand to fold i don't think, and you will just get called by a hand like aces up. I think you have a crying call on the river. Okay now i'll go and look at the results.

I think you meant the SB folded (you were the button). Anyway, whoever said "King Ten obviously" is a total idiot. BB would have reraised with the nuts on the turn and if he didn't then he for sure would have on the river. Well I'll guess that the SB had AK and doesn't know how to fold when its obvious he's beat.

Raise before the flop. Call on flop is ok because there is nobody behind you to raise. Turn is a bit dangerous becuase if the raise is legitimate the only hands you beat are AK and KK. And even AK has a decent amount of cards to catch you. I might just call here if I respect the raiser. River I think you make a big mistake. After showing so much strength on the turn, someone now bets into you again. Make a crying call. Besides the fact the better might have caught you, you make it impossible for the original raiser to payoff. Now you lose 3 bets instead of one if your beat. And if your hands good you only make 2. Unless the better makes a laydown on the river. Then you make no extra bets while risking 2 bb.

I'm sure whoever said "King ten" was referring to Daniel's hand, not the BB.


The raise on the river is too thin for me, as the only 2 pair hands he could have made that you can beat are 24 J2 and Q2 which seem unlikely hands for the BB to call a raise preflop with. I think more often you would find yourself looking at a A2 or 35, or get reraised and have to consider folding.

Coilean,


This was my thinking on the river. When the SB bet the turn and the BB called, my raise says one thing and one thing only: "strong made hand", because there is no reason for me to jam any sort of draw or anything there, since I'm not getting value or cheaper cards--and I'm not bluffing, becuase someone has already called. Therefore, when the most innocuous card in the deck falls on the river, an offsuit deuce, I must still think that my hand is good. Therefore, I will obviously bet the river when if it is checked to me. And I think that it should be pretty obvious to anyone at the mid-limits (remember, this was only my 3rd hand at the table) that I will bet the river. Therefore, if the BB truly had a very strong hand, a check-raise would make SO much more sense. Basically, I smelled something fishy when he bet the river because I couldn't figure any hand that made sense like that, so I was almost positive that I was ahead.


Despite the fact that the results worked out, that doesn't make my play correct of course. I do think that it is an interesting decision, though.


-Dan

Yes, you showed alot of strength on the turn. Thats why you should be more scared of this bet. No they will not necessarily go for a checkraise in this spot. If he made aces up on the river he might bet out instead of checkraising becuase he would be worried you had K10 and didn't want to get reraised but liked his hand enough to put a bet out becuase he wanted to make sure he got money in if his hand was good. And like you said it smelt fishy, more reason to just call. If he is completely bluffing you get no more money from anybody. But may gain and extra bet from the other opponent overcalling. And you save 1 or 2 big bets the times when you were beat and would have gotten raised.

"When the small blind raises you need to concerned that he has some sort of value, people usually have significant strength when raising their blinds, even when the pot is short handed like this. Now when the BB calls that puts another potentially decent hand into the mix. You should fold here even though you are getting 11-1 and close the action."


that's ridiculous. with 1 sb in already on the button with a good suited connector he has more than sufficient implied odds to see the flop (he is trying to hit a good draw). if he were out of position, didnt close the action, or the had QJo i think a fold would be okay, but a fold where he is with what he holds would be a definite mistake.


his call for one bet, closing the action on the flop to try and snag trips or two pair is also fine.


i agree that raising the river is a mistake. bb is way too likely to have aces up and no i havent read the results either.

I think you made a GREAT river raise. All the info was there and you carpe deimed.


"Flop is AQ4r (none of my suit). The SB bets, BB calls,"


If we can presume that he would have raised with A-2, and I think we can, with two players behind him and a prime opportunity to narrow the field and/or gain info, then A-2 is gone from his range of possible hands.


"Turn in J, putting a two flush on board. SB bets, BB calls, I raise, and both call."


Surely he'd have reraised here if he had a set, A-4, A-Q, or A-J, and was going for the super-duper slowplay.


The only hand you need fear on the river is a wheel, IMO. Because you can safely fold to a reraise on the river, I think the river raise is top notch.


Tommy

Let's say that he DID have A-2, hitting top and bottom on the river, and had decided to just call along on every street. He doesn't have enough to reraise on the river, so your river raise is protected in that way. So it comes down to a straight up one-bet decision wieghing the likelihood of him having A-2 (slim, IMO) vs the likelihood of him having a hand he would payoff your river raise with (good, given that he bet out). I still like the raise.


Tommy

Tommy,


You stated (far more succinctly than I could have) my exact thinking on the hand. I wanted to post this because I thought it was an interesting hand reading excercise. I took a big risk, since I negated the possibility of an overcall and opened up the possibility of a 3-bet, but I think that the clues so strongly suggested that I was ahead (for all of the reasons you gave) that I thought a raise was correct or atleast close. Thanks for your compliment and encouragement.


-Dan


P.S. From reading some of your posts, I sense that river play is a very strong part of your game. You seem to make and save big bets in spots where few players could. So I really appreciate getting a compliment from you on a gutsy river decision I made.

So what hand are you giving the bb that he could bet on the river, after the action on the turn, that you can beat and he could call?


You say he will raise with A2 on the flop to narrow thw feild. Well he would be corret to, but not everybody does things correctly. He is not described as a good player. Many bad player will just call in these spot now bet the river when they make aces up. In fact I think that is his most likley holding.

By the way extermely surpised that he had a worse hand that he would bet river and call that wouldn't beat his hand.

"So what hand are you giving the bb that he could bet on the river, after the action on the turn, that you can beat ..."


Two pair, or who the heck knows, maybe even one pair. I mean, we have no profiling on the player at all to go on. If he had A-x and did NOT raise the flop, as we both think a good player would, then that means he can't be both a good player and hold that hand. And in general it takes a good player to bet the river and fold to a raise, so we needn't fear him betting the river with one pair or two pair and then folding. I'm not explaining this well and I'm in a hurry, but the good-player bad-player potentials line up with the potential holdings in a way that suggests to me that this guy rates to not be a good player, meaning it's even more likely he made a lesser two pair on the river, and that he would bet out and call a raise with that hand.


Tommy

I agree that he sounds like a bad player and will payoff if he has almost any pair. But if he is bluffing you might get no more bets. So you either gain one bet or none. Where if you just call there is a really good chance of an overcall. And you get the same one bet without risking losing more bets by raising.

I agree with pokerguy.

If you call you stand to get the overcall from the original raiser without risk of a reraise from the river bettor.

IMO - It's just this type of hand on the dick riverplay that not only makes little sense but seems to be made for purely ego reasons. It feels good to raise with a marginal holdings on 2 consecutive streets in a marginal situation and be right. It may not be the right play but sure makes you feel like the big man you undoubtedly are.. However what happens in the many other cases when the 3rd player in the pot folds and the river bettor re raises and you call 'just in case' only to see A2 or any other hand that beats you. Even better and more likely is that you raise and the 3rd player folds and the original bettor calls and shows you the best hand.

It sounds great on this forum to say how this kind of daring play is excellent etc and quite frankly I hope everyone keeps playing in this manner and raises me on the river with QJ - yum yum. It's just about the only thing that keeps hold em games great after all these years - otherwise sane and very intelligent people think that making plays like this is the way to win and something to aspire to when IMO pokers not really about that. Feels good to play that way though and we all want pleasure from poker, right?