Two 15-30 hands

When the players are easy to read....


I am in the small blind with TT.


The game is fairly conservative. I have yet to see someone raise the turn with less than top pair. However, there's only a couple soft spots in the game. The rest of the players play tight, conservative poker with passive tenacity, although they defend their blinds a little too much. It makes for a strange game. It can be profitable but in a different way than aggressive loose games or loose passive games.


UTG limps. He is a little loose preflop and I haven't seen him raise on any street without a made hand of top pair or better.

I have not seen him bet out on the turn or river without a strong hand.


Two more limpers, including the cutoff who is a very very bad player. I complete the small blind for one chip. The big blind checks.


The flop comes 823 rainbow. This is a small pot and I bet out. Big blind folds, UTG raises, only the cutoff calls, which means he could literally have anything except a good hand. He would have re-raised with anything better than A8.


I call.


Turn is a K. Check around. This means that there is only a 5 or 10% chance my hand isn't good.


River is a 9. I bet, UTG calls, button folds.


I win.


I'm thinking I could have made more money here, but I'm not sure. I think it's one of those situations where I could lose more if I'm behind but I can't win much more when I'm ahead.


Fancy Play Syndrome?

Same game. I raise in the cutoff with a weak suited ace. Both blinds defend. Flop comes A34.


I bet when checked to and they both call.


I think for a minute about where I stand. Judging from what I know about the players so far, I may be facing a gut shot, a pocket pair, or a pair with a straight draw, or even just two big cards who don't believe me.


The turn pairs the 3. They check to me. This time I check.


I figure I'm giving away VERY little and if I'm behind I'm going to be glad I checked. If they have a 3 so be it. There's almost no chance they have a bigger ace. In this tight, passive tenacious game, I figure I can induce a call/bluff on the river by checking here. Anyone with a strong draw is going nowhere, and anyone with a weak draw will probably drop here anyway. The pot is small, so I'm not risking much here. As passive as they are, they might bet out with a middle pocket pair since I checked the turn.


River comes a 6. Check, bet, I call and lose to 57s. I told you they defend their blinds too loosely.


Was my play on the turn just a little too fancy? Should I have been able to get away if I had bet the turn, got called, and then was bet into on the river? That is almost certainly what would have happened, based on what I knew of the player.


natedogg

On the first hand I would have check called on the river hoping to pick off a bluff. 99 and 89s are reasonable hands for UTG so you could be facing a raise. you would have also checked twice so many players will take a shot at the pot with anything. It looks like you were against 78s or 77.


On the second hand - If you plan on calling down no matter what then checking the turn is probably the correct play. If you can fold to a check-raise then I would bet.

First hand, I would have reraised preflop. Your hand is obviously good and there are no apparent draws.


I think you also have to bet the turn. The K will scare A-8 as much as it scares you and it's unlikely these types of players will have a King in an unraised pot. You risk giving a free card with a vulnerable pair.


On the second hand, a 3 is an unlikely card for either of them to have, so I think I bet the turn. If I had a 3 from one of the blinds, I would have bet the turn since it is not for sure you have an ace and will bet.


Having said that, I agree that 7-5s still might possibly have called, reasoning he might have had as many as ten outs.


How weak was your weak kicker?

natedogg,


In hand 1, if UTG is as conservative and predictable as you say, I would have led into him on the turn when the K came. You can lay down if he raises, and you avoid the tough decision (which didn't come up) if he bets.


In hand 2, I think betting the turn is preferable when you have 2 opponents (checking becomes more attractive against only 1 opponent).


-Dan

Nate,


TT hand: Against that kind of opposition I'd play it much more aggressively. Preflop I'm with you: call with two players in already, more so if the big blind is loose. On the flop, TT is probably good, and you're happy if anyone lays down. Why not reraise? You'd be putting your money in with excellent odds.


On the turn, will you lay down to a bet? If not - and especially if you can lay down to a raise - might as well bet unless an ace or eight falls. You are still the favorite. Most eights will call you, and any king will bet anyway. More importantly, QJ, A9 and so on don't get to see the river, and lower pairs pay dearly. Then check-call the river if another overcard comes. If UTG has a set, you save a bet if he raises the turn (by folding), and you break even if he waits til the river (by checking). If you're behind you lose 1.5 bets more vs. your strategy. If you're ahead you win at least 1 bet more (usually 2-3), and the chances of getting drawn out on are lowered. You only have to end up with the best hand around 40% of the time to benefit from aggression.


A-rag hand. I'd bet the turn. The river depends on my kicker and opponents.


Matt

One small comment:


Against typical opponents and what looks like a steal raise in the cutoff or on the button, I don't think that 75s is too weak to defend with.


You're generally getting 3-1 to flop a pair, or something good. If the raiser is playing something like 55/T9s/KJ or better, which is what I see a lot (or a lot looser), then you really should defend with any pair, any ace, almost any king, and even crap like 75s.


I haven't put the thought into figuring out how this changes based on the game you're describing, though.


- target

Natedogg,


Haven't read the other responses yet, I expect they'll be similar.


First hand: I 3-bet the flop and lead the turn with anything but an 8; river: probably bet into one opponent, since I'm going to call anyway...if both are still in probably check and call the river.


Second hand: with no resistance on the flop you do HAVE TO bet the turn to prevent precisely what happened(trip 3's are usually unlikely in this spot), if they stay to hit the gutshot or spike a pocket pair, that's their mistake, if you let them hit it for free it's your mistake, no matter the results.


Mike

It is best to post one hand at a time. I think you played both hands very poorly, and too passively.


I will check in hand #2 on the turn a lot, but not against the players you describe. If they are passive callers who could have gutshots, BET! I think your thinking they have hands like KQ or QJ is pretty far - fetched. Why would they call on the flop? They would steal or fold unless they are horrible.

Also, the pot is 9 small bets - it is no longer tiny. You gave up a lot here.


this siutation is VERY different from a HTH, small pot. Also, the board is more threatening than you think.


Dan Z.