So much crying, so much calling: 31 BB pot!

15/30 round in a 10/20 half-kill game.


This was a painful one. I think that I may have really screwed up, so I'm looking for feedback. The game is a totally crazy. With the exception of two players other than myself, the rest of the table is certifiably nuts. It was one of the softest mid-limit games I have ever seen. It’s a holiday weekend, and the alcohol is flowing.


5 limpers including "the killer". The button, who even in this crowd of idiots stands out as being particularly atrocious, raises. Interpreting the alignment of the stars would be easier than interpreting this raise--he could have just about anything. The SB, another total fish, calls. I look down and see AsJs. I know that if I make it 3 bets that everyone will call, and I also know that people's limping standards are insanely liberal. I make it 3 bets and everyone calls. There are 8 players (the two good ones folded) and 24 SBs in the pot.


The flop is 622r, with none of my suit. I check, toothless wonder (TW) next to act bets, everyone calls, and I close the action with a call. I take his bet to mean that he has either a 6 or a 2. I have no physical read. A six seems more likely, both because he would play more hands with sixes in them and because there is only one on the board. There are still 8 of the best and now 16 BBs in the pot.


The turn is a 10. The SB leads out. Realize that the SB has absolutely no clue. He could have a pair (two pairs in total), but there's no reason to count on it. His bet in no way indicates that I don’t have 6 outs or even that I’m not ahead. I am getting 17:1 immediate odds from the pot (and am about 6.7:1 to catch an ace or jack): I take a glance at TW to try to figure out whether or not he's going to raise, but I can't get a read. Given the information I have provided so far, what is the correct play, and is it close?


I call, and TW unfortunately raises, two players cold call, and the better calls. I think TW would not raise here without 2 pr, though I do still think it’s possible that he does not have trips or a full house and that I have 6 outs (he is dumb but not one of the ones drinking). The two players would cold call with any two cards. I am not getting 25:1 on a call. My thinking was the following (though I’m not sure it was good thinking—in retrospect I think that it was ‘3AM boy am I tired’ thinking): I’m not sure whether the river will be bet or not. If it is bet, then I’m getting effectively like 15:1 now. If it’s not bet (which it probably won’t be if no one has trip twos or a full house), then I’m getting 25:1. So let’s say I’m getting 18:1. And I’ll make my pair 6.7:1, and I figured that it’d be good 40%of the time (maybe a terrible assumption!!!). I called. Was this: a) a terrible call, b) a slightly bad call, c) a slightly good call, or d) a very good call. There are now 26 BBs in the pot and 5 players


The river is an 8. So the board is now 6 2 2 10 8. TW bets and all three players call to me. I am getting 30:1 on a call. The three players who called are all capable of calling without a pair (but the probability that none has one is of course ridiculously small). At this point, I am just pissed and tired and generally upset. I call. Again, was this: a) a terrible call, b) a slightly bad call, c) a slightly good call, or d) a very good call. I know what I think; I think $30 buys a lot of fruit plates.


I think that I played the hand poorly, and I am not at all happy about it. However, I would still like to hear feedback, perhaps further floggings or even kind comments.


I’ll post the results and my thoughts about the hand later today.


All comments welcome. Though don’t be too mean, because I already feel sufficient shame about the hand. ;-)


-Dan

Dan, I think your play is o.k. until the turn - at this point you have to FOLD!!

Bad players and drunks love 6's and 2's - they also catch real hands sometimes!

Shame? The game is supposed to be fun. When I mis-hit a golf shot, maybe I feel disappointment about the bad swing, or sometimes anger, but I don't feel shame. There's nothing dishonorable in making a poker bet unless one has cheated.


It took guts to post this hand. And it is very entertaining.


This is as kind as I can be. Comments about the hand itself are best left unsaid.


"Insanely liberal" This is what most of the posters on the Other Topics forum think of me. They're probably right (pun intended).

Dan,


Pre flop: I don't like the 3-bet. You have a hand that if I don't flop a draw at least, I'm releasing easily on the flop when there are 8 players (and you know that there are going to be at least 5 or 6 when you make the raise). Plus you're not in position to take control of the hand - besides, even if you did try, you'd get called down.


On the flop: I think this is an easy fold. No pair (to your cards), no straight draw, no flush draw - all you have is two overcards and there's already a pair on the board. The table you describe is the kind of table where you are going to see K2s or J6s shown down, so I would assume that someone out there has at least a 6 and likely a deuce. Crazy people like deuces for some reason. If an A comes are you happy? You could be out kicked or someone could be playing A6. There are just too many people to stay in. Now, if it were heads up you might have the best hand.


On the turn: EXTREMELY easy fold when the SB bets.


Clearly, this is all said in the comfort of my own home at noon after a good night's sleep, so don't take it personally.

Preflop: I think that my 3-bet with AJs was definitely correct in this unusual circumstance.


Flop: I think that I have a clear call given the ridiculous odds (and the fact that I close the betting action).


Turn: I think that my play on the turn and river was disasterous. Yup. Basically, I think that wishful thinking and frustration got in the way of an accurate assessment of how likely someone (maybe not even TW) had a hand I was drawing dead to. I think I should have folded to the first bet (despite getting 25:1 on a call). And I am obviously drawing dead once it gets raised--this guy wouldn't know how to raise to protect a big pot with a marginal hand. Let's not even talk about the river. I would need the assistence of mind-altering drugs to dream up a situation in which I could win (even at 30:1).


The result was that TW had K2. The other hands were not shown.


Ahh!


Thanks for the responses.


-Dan

Andy writes, "It took guts to post this hand."


My thought as well.


A common mantra is that in ultra lose games it's best to make your hand first and think second. You hadn't made a hand. And you didn't have a made hand before the flop. I think it's a major money pisser to reraise from the blinds with a non-pair hand in a wild game, especially if the act of posturing ties you emotionally to the pot.


Picture the simplicity and elegance of not raising preflop, seeing a flop of 6-2-2, and folding for one bet, and holding on to that bet to invest when the flop comes A-x-x or J-x-x, or even K-J-x. Your choice is to face the inevitable action with a pair or without one. Think "shoot 'em in the nest."


(As your hand went down, I would have taken one off on the flop as well, but that's a very rare situation to be last to act from up front and only face one bet in a multi-way three-bets-to-go pot.)


" 'Insanely liberal.' This is what most of the posters on the Other Topics forum think of me. They're probably right (pun intended)."


No wonder we get along so well. I have a T-shirt with the font and layout of a street sign that says, "Slow thinkers keep right." I bought it from a street vendor at, where else, Berkeley.


Tommy

Years ago I did a lot of business in Berkeley. About two weeks after the election of 1980, almost all of the stop signs in town had beeen spray painted with the word "Reagan" underneath the word "Stop." Enough said.

I think you should rethink your preflop reraise. The main reason to do this is to tie people to the pot when you make a flush (or straight). But these players are so bad they will pay off your flush regardless of how big the pot is. Unless noone holds a Q or K poreflop, AJ is not much of a favorite against a large field when you don't make a flush (or straight) -- so you should probably see how the flop comes before committing more bets to the pot.

The preflop 3-bet is good only if it ties your opponents to the pot when *you* hit a hand, not if it ties you to the pot when you completely miss the flop. I might have called the flop bet, since there is no fear of a raise behind you. However, the turn is a clear fold, since you have nothing, and there is a significant chance of a raise behind you. On the river, I would put your chances of beating a better and three callers at approximately 1,000:1. Clear fold here.

Calling is frequently the wrong thing to do. If you were going to continue in the hand, you should have raised on every street in order to narrow the field (when the SB lead out), if only to preserve your outs. I doubt it would have helped, but you might have even won the pot if you played more aggressivly.


However, I would have just dumped the hand the flop unless I had the backdoor flush draw. There is just too great a chance you are drawing dead, or real slim to running aces or jacks.

I can't believe you lost so much on this hand with nothing. On the river is the worst. That many calls and you don't think someone has a pair? They may be drunk and loose but not blind. At least not collectively. And this is coming from someone who pays everything off on the river.