Playing KK on Level 1

[obex]

$50 + $5 SNG Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed)

Button (t985)
SB (t985)
BB (t1000)
UTG (t905)
UTG+1 (t1000)
UTG+2 (t1000)
MP1 (t1000)
MP2 (t985)
MP3 (t1000)
Hero (t1140)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls t15, MP1 calls t15, MP2 calls t15, MP3 folds, Hero raises to t100, Button folds, SB folds, BB raises to t400, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls t385, MP2 calls t385...

What now? I hate to be all-in at Level 1 with anything less then KK heads-up. Way to early to be risking the tourney on anything too risky, right? Here is a likely 4-way pot, including 1 reraiser. Who lays this down to live and fight another day? Who pushes? Does anyone just call?

Painful results to follow.

[Jason Strasser]

Easy push. He has AA, tip your hat. He sucks out, leave. Otherwise you have a monster stack.

[alieneyes]

Well, there is no way I'd just call. You either have to believe the BB has AA and fold or you have to push. Given that MP1 did not re-raise all in after limping initially i doubt he's trying the second hand low trick (especially since there was already a limper in front of him).

The BB has shown a lot of strength - unless he believes you were just trying to steal the pot from a couple limpers as per TPFAP, in which case he might raise with some "non-traditional" re-raising hands, ie. JJ or AK. Not playing Party that much, but thinking that there are some weakish players and players that would over play QQ and AK, and seeing that the stacks aren't super deep and given the possibility of the above TPFAP play, I'd likely push but it would be close (the probable extra equity from MP1 helps, the early stage of the tournament does not).

[allenciox]

Actually, I do just call. If a flop comes with an Ace on it, you can pretty well know you are beat with this crowd, and you save over half your chips. If you don't get an ace on the flop, you push then.

By raising all-in, just about everybody already betting stays in, and then you will get beat whenever an ace comes on the flop.

[mackthefork]

I had a similar experience in a Stars 18 seater sng, blinds are 15/30 Mack raises 150 from MP with KK all fold to BB who goes all in, Mack folds after much musing. It should be noted we were the joint chip leaders at the time on about 3000 each. He showed JJ, turned out to be a nutter.

Regards ML

[Mackas]

The way I look at it is this is Party and you have KK, you can't fold, its just too strong and if someone has AA well fair play to him. So folding is out.

If you push you are extremely likely to get called in all 3 spots, If you don't push I'm sure all the money is going in on the flop anyway from all three. You are probably going to need to beat all three therefore to win the pot whetehr you push here or push or call all in on the flop. So you're push doesn't really achieve anything except commit everyone to the pot preflop 100%. I don't think you give up much equity by waiting for the flop to push the rest in. One might get away and keep 600 chips but that's no big deal. On the other hand if you see an A on the flop you can be sure as hell one of them has hit it and get away with 600 in the early stages and by no means dead.

Soooo, I would call and get it all in on the flop unless an A spikes in which case I fold and play a shorter stack for a while. This is not how I always play KK BTW but with 3 callers you can be virtually sure one has an A and the money is probably all going in anyway after the flop so you don't narrow the field by pushing preflop and should still win more or less the same if no ace spikes.

The equity you lose for example if an AK or other big Ace which misses the flop folds and you lose his extra 600 is worth offsetting against the chance that an A falls and you can get away from it. There is also the chance that an AK which misses the flop and then folds would have caught an A on turn or river in which case you gain also. This also applies to smaller pairs which miss the flop but would have tripped up later or backdoor str8s, flushes etc. At the end of the day if you lose one or two players on the flop the money you lose is offset against giving three hand five cards to catch you, in which case you are not that great a favourite to hold up.

All in all then whilst I don't think pushing here is a big mistake I think calling is preferable. You can close the betting here and wait to see if an A falls before throwing the rest in. You lose very very little by doing this, and potentially gain a lot.

I'll now sit back and wait for the tide of derision from the big push fans to smother me and send me back to real work with my tail between my legs.

GL

Mackas

[alieneyes]

[ QUOTE ]

Actually, I do just call. If a flop comes with an Ace on it, you can pretty well know you are beat with this crowd, and you save over half your chips. If you don't get an ace on the flop, you push then.

By raising all-in, just about everybody already betting stays in, and then you will get beat whenever an ace comes on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, this way you commit 40% of your stack, only to possibly fold later on in a one table satellite when you believe you are a solid favourite pre-flop (and by not folding I'm assuming you do believe this).

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

you commit 40% of your stack

This is Party. 400 is 50% of your starting stack.

[alieneyes]

[ QUOTE ]
This is Party. 400 is 50% of your starting stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is? I thought you started with 1000 at party, atleast based on the chip counts earlier thats what it seems.

[Colby818]

[ QUOTE ]
All in all then whilst I don't think pushing here is a big mistake I think calling is preferable. You can close the betting here and wait to see if an A falls before throwing the rest in. You lose very very little by doing this, and potentially gain a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I like the theory here a lot, I just wanted to raise another point of debate. Having seen this exact situation come up a number of times, usually, one player will have something along the lines of AK, the other will likely have a pp along the lines of TT.

With that in mind, what is your strategy? I guess as you said, it doesn't matter much. Guys that are willing to call half their stack are likely going to be willing to go all in with you.

I guess this swings me back to going allin preflop. It's still unlikely that pocket pair will walk away, but it is possible. I'm far less annoyed losing to the AK who catches his A than I am betting into trips.

Just a thought.

Colby

[Colby818]

[ QUOTE ]
you commit 40% of your stack

This is Party. 400 is 50% of your starting stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a Party 50/5, you start at 1000. It is 40%.

[sabre170]

The more callers of the all-in, the better.
They are probably holding each others' outs.

[obex]

I thought that it was not worth the risk of being crippled early either by someone with AA or having my hand not hold up against 3 others. Surely I could play my way into the money from 900 at such an early level, right? Let a couple people get knocked out of the tourney right now while I watch from the sidelines.
So...

Hero folded.

Flop: (t1325) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets t600 (All-In)</font>, MP1 calls t600 (All-In), MP2 folds.

Turn: (t2525) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t2525) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t2525
<font color="green">Main Pot: t2525 (t2525), between BB and MP1.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by BB (t2525).</font>

Results:
BB shows Jh Js (two pair, jacks and twos).
MP1 shows 5c 5h (two pair, fives and twos).
Outcome: BB wins t2525. </font>

Hero goes on to a fourth place finish.
The End.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

You know, I looked back, and it sure looks like they started with 1000. But since this is the SNG forum, I assumed it was a Party SNG where you start with 800. Upon rereading the original post, it must be a multi.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

So you're telling me that Party changes the structure above $30 + 3. Live and learn.

[MWC]

I don't play in the 50/5s, but I can't fold this and I can't just call it either. Surely a push is the maximum EV play (albeit with a higher variance): we all know that BB and MP1 are not the only Party players who'd be in there with JJ and 55. If you get cracked, you move to the next table, knowing that you're still a +ROI player.

[Colby818]

I don't think either of allin or folding are the wrong decision. I'd personally push, for exactly what your results showed. a small pair and a middle pair. heck, hindsight is 20/20, but you'd have even drawn out on AA.

I leave folding as an option, because say this had been the WSOP and you had bought in with $10k of your own cash and you were raised to $4000 in the opening round, I'd have to seriously think about laying it down. So, if losing $10 is a big deal, then fold. You obviously maintain a chance to win if you fold and it turns out he would have beaten you. But, if you run away from every hand that you might lose, I'm not sure folding really does improve your chances of winning.

Colby

[obex]

Yeah Party 30 and lower starts at 800, 50 and above starts at 1000. I wish it was 1000 at all levels.

[gergery]

Really this comes down to a simple question: Would you rather have
1) a ton of chips most of the time but get eliminated the rest of the time, or
2) less chips but still alot of chips most of the time but a short stack the rest of the time.

Is the plus from the difference between 'a ton vs. a lot' worth more than the minus between 'short stck' vs. 'the rail'?

It's personal preference. I like option two because I think i can outplay them later, so in your scenario I call then push unless an ace hits. The key is that the other limpers are more likely to fold when they miss the flop (which happens most of the time), whereas they are very likely to call preflop. And I always prefer my opponents folding when the pot is huge, even if i'm a big favorite.

FYI, A very similar situation happened to me at a Party $20 sng. 4 of us ended up almost all in preflop early in tourny. Ace hits flop and i muck KK to stay alive as very short stck. They had 55, A8o, QQ. so A8 wins the pot.

So the moral of the story is never fold KK at Party Poker.

[GuidoSarducci]

On Party, I think the $50+$5 and above tourneys start with T1000. Only the low buyin ones are short.

[HajiShirazu]

Honestly I might not even be able to get away from QQ here because it would be the best hand far too often at a party sng. KK is too easy. I see way too many 88's and ATo's in these stages to throw away this hand here.
I find that if I double up or win an even bigger pot early like this, I almost always make the money, and I'm very unlikely to get in a situation this good (KK with guys who seem to want to put their money in) again. Pair over two other pairs or KK vs Ax, you can't do a whole lot better than that. I guess maybe I am not the most skilled player in the world though.
Also in my experience a lot of players with AA would have smoothcalled or tried to price you in with a smaller raise. The standard reraise makes it a bit less likely he has AA IMO.

[ClimbRock512]

You have to push here for three reasons...

1. You may just scoop a decent pot, no risk involved.

2. He may have AK QQ JJ which you have a very strong upperhand.

3. He may have AA which you can outdraw. But you'll most likely lose here.

Losing, well you haven't wasted any time, hop back in another SnG.

Should you win the hand, your chances of getting ITM greatly increase.

The play it self may have a small +EV, but remember that hourly rate is what is really important and this play has increases your hourly rate, especially due to the fact that you've invested very little time in this tournament.

Here is a little math to show.
For ease of calculation, I'm going to make several assumptions, some of which may not be accurate but I they should still get my point across.

Assume you are playign a $10 SnG.
You win $10 per SnG long run.
SnG takes one hour to complete.
Hourly rate is $10/hr.

You just wasted 5 mins playing the SnG where you lost $10 with KK. (Current hourly rate = -$10/hr)

You get back into another SnG with an EV of $10.(assuming the 5 min loss is negligible you are now even for the hour)

The other case, you now double/triple up with KK. This increases your ITM to 80%. This probably increases your expected hourly wage to $20-30/hr(assume 20 for pessimism).

You now need to be right about 50% of the time. (I think this number is probably even less, but my numbers are purely just pulled out of my head.) 1 time you win $20 other time you net $0. $20/2hrs is the same as your expected rate. If you are a good player, you can prob increase your hourly wage past $20/hr provided you win with KK.

My theory may not be flawless, I just kind of rambled on while I'm at work, but I think the general concept is there.

With the quality of players on Party, this move is definately +EV. WSOP....I think I might second guess myself, mostly for the reason that I can't jump right into another WSOP.

[Hood]

[ QUOTE ]
The more callers of the all-in, the better.
They are probably holding each others' outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts exactly.

Not only is it likely 2 or 3 aces are being held here - meaning they've only got 1 or 2 outs - but it greatly reduces the chance of AA being out there.

Push, every time. If you win this you a huge favourite to win the tounry. If you lose, move on.

[Colby818]

[ QUOTE ]
With the quality of players on Party, this move is definately +EV. WSOP....I think I might second guess myself, mostly for the reason that I can't jump right into another WSOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a very interesting take on this. I'm playing on a fairly small bankroll right now, so I often resist this line of thinking, but I must admit, there are times I make decisions based on this exact line of thinking. Especially when I'm short stacked. Nothing worse than pulling out every trick in the book trying to stay alive only to finish 4th 45 minutes later.

Swing for the fences when you've got a great hand like this and realize that you are going to end up with more home runs than strike outs. Especially when you are facing the kind of minor league pitching that Party offers up.

Colby

[Beavis68]

[ QUOTE ]
The more callers of the all-in, the better.
They are probably holding each others' outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

EXACTLY!

If you are at a level where your bank-roll is affecting your play, you are playing too high. I am a firm believer that what is right in a 5 dollar game is also right in a 5,000 dollar game. The only thing that makes a difference is what you know about your opponents. These guys were obviously idiots.

[carpola]

If your going to fold to a $300 bet with $1325 in the pot your playing to weak. I'd push All-in. Folding pocket Kings will hurt you more than it will help you in SNG's

[hhboy77]

in the bob ciaffone big bet book, he says that pushing all in with kk is the wrong play because it makes it impossible for the reraiser to misplay his hand. aa, he calls; everything else he throws away.

however, while this may be true in tough games, it certainly is not the case in party poker sng's. unless you have a strong read on your opponent - which it doesn't sound like you do - your goal with kk should be to get all your money in it.

when i read the logic for a call, i think it is reasonable but i think there is a consideration missed. if the reraiser does have ak and an ace doesn't flop, it is unlikely he will bet into three people. the same goes for the two callers. unless one of them flops at least top pair, no one is going to bet. when it gets to you, you push all in and likely everyone folds. while this is certainly a good outcome, i'm not sure it is the best.

in addition, if you push all in, i think there is a fair chance that at least one or two of the players disappear. if that were a possibility, that would be a huge coup as you would get a huge chunk of dead money.

i think it's difficult to give real analysis when you have no reads on your opponent. all you can really think about are the factors involved in the decision.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
in the bob ciaffone big bet book, he says that pushing all in with kk is the wrong play because it makes it impossible for the reraiser to misplay his hand. aa, he calls; everything else he throws away.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't read that book yet, but the correct context for the idea is when moving in is a huge overbet, particularly heads-up. It is valid if moving in is a bet of 50 times the pot, but not if it is 3 times the pot.

Here, moving in is less than a pot-sized bet, and pushing with KK will provoke many errors from your opponents, both incorrect calls (sharing outs) and incorrect folds from hands that play well 4-way.