A-J hand

15-30 limit.


I have AJc and open limp one from UTG. The game is loose, mildly aggressive with several really loose players. There is a good player(GP) on my left. GP limps, two others limp, sb raises, bb calls and so does everyone else. we see the flop 6 handed. the sb plays every hand and is on a rush for the ages. He is up over $3,500.


the flop is J-7-4 rainbow.


sb bets, bb raises, I three bet and everyone calls! The turn is a 6s and there are now two spades on the board.


Board is now J-7-4-(6)

check to me and I bet. GP raises and gets called by 3 players including the sb.


what's your play?

Muck it .. you're probably drawing dead .I put GP on a set of sevens.What else is he going to cold call 3 bets on the flop with?

I doubt he has an overpair but if does you're also in deep dodo.

Because the game sounds fairly wild and he knew a 3-bet with AA,KK or QQ would be dissed he may have an overpair..matters how he's been doing in the game.But it sounds like the wild guy is winning everyones money .

First, I wouldn't play AJo UTG in this type of game.


Against a competent field of players it's hard to imagine a scenario where your pair of jacks are anything but toast on the turn. Against a poor playing line-up (where sb bets 65, bb raises with?, GP calls 3 cold with AJ, the rest call with? - and now GP raises your turn bet with AJ), it's possible, but with all this action less likely. Even if your hand is somehow still good, it may not be by the river. If beat, I don't even give you much hope for re-draw potential (such as 5 outs). So against players with some ability, fold. Against a field of lunatics you can call for the sheer odds, but expect to lose.

Boris,


GP's action so far has set written all over it. If he doesn't have a set then somebody else has a set or two pair and at least one opponent is drawing to the straight and/or flush. Most of the time you are way behind or drawing dead and if not you are vulnerable. The problem with calling the raise is that it could get bloody on the river. I would fold.


Regards,


Rick

my A-J was soooted. I agree about not playing A-Jo UTG in this type of game.

Boris,


I agree with the others, GP probably has a set and you're drawing dead, muck it unless you REALLY HAVE to see if GP is making this raise to check down the river. If you muck, which you should in almost all cases and GP happens to be making this play with AJ or an even worse J AND he wins the pot(was the J on the flop a spade? if it wasn't this could be one of the very few reasons to consider calling the turn, that is if GP could have the suited J of spades and plan on checking the river if he misses the flush)-- understand that position has its advantages-- play just as well when you have position (and even when you don't) and these things will even out or balance in your favor if you can outplay your opponents, even GP.


Good Luck,


Mike

I count (and I usually do this badly) $720 in the pot at this point. Getting 24:1, anybody think it's worth a call? Hard to imagine GP not having a big hand, but wild things happen in wild games/pots like this.


In a loose game, I like having the GP on my left. He's usually the tightest player. But, in this case, you gave up this advantage by limping pre-flop twice (in effect) when, for one small bet, you might have knocked him out.

But Andy (I'm trying a Jim Brier imitation here) if you call the turn it won't end there. You will almost always call at least one bet more on the river and I'm not sure you like it even if you catch a jack or ace.


BTW, is it really 24 to 1? I was multi-tasking and didn't count ;-).


Regards,


Rick

Andy's 25-1 is right, but it's really about half that presuming that a turn call will be followed by a river call. The river call will be more like 30-1 or thereabouts, meaning the turn call is more like 14-1 or so. (Is that thinking right? Not the exactness of the numbers, but the retroactive/predictive turn-odds thing?)


At 14-ish to 1, a fold on the turn looks even better.


Tommy

On the position thing, I generally like 2 tight players to my left because that often has the effect of giving me the button three times every round.


On the same pont, contrary to conventional thinking, I hate having manicas/ aggressive preflop players to my immediate right. IMO, the adavantage of isolating this fella by 3 betting preflop is vastly overrated. You simply can't make up the disadvantage of, in effect, having to act first on every flop (figuratively) in games where they check to the guy to your right because he was the raiser and then he puts in his automatic/semi-automatic flop bet.

...I guess I want everyone to my left /images/smile.gif

"... contrary to conventional thinking, I hate having maniacs/ aggressive preflop players to my immediate right. IMO, the adavantage of isolating this fella by 3 betting preflop is vastly overrated."


Much agreed.


I think the best spot for the maniac is half a table away. Look at the difference between having him directly on the left or two seats to the left. The factor is not 1/9, it's 1/2. When directly on the left, we are guarenteed one hand per round with position on him. Two to the left, and we get two hands. That's huge in my opinion.


Carrying this through would suggest that having him on the immediate right would be best, except that a sort of diminishing returns kicks in because the early seats aren't worth much anyway, and entanglements from there will likely not deter pick-offs from behind. So we need the goods to play from up front, with or without the maniac on our right. I'd just as soon avoid the mere temptation of getting out of line up front because the maniac pumped it again, by having him several seats away, in either direction, and basically gear up for the last few seats, as usual.


Tommy

thanks everyone for the feedback.


I folded when GP raised and got 3 cold callers. My thinking was pretty much in line with Rick's response. At the time it was a pretty clear cut fold and I didn't really think twice about it.


To my dismay a brick came on the river and everyone checked. GP took down a big pot with K-Jo. Doh!

I'm not sure about having the maniac immediately on my right. I see positives and negatives. It's nice to get a first crack at him. I don't think the factor you mention, that other then check to him on the flop, comes into play that much, since if you're 3-betting him every time you play, you're usually going to be head-up with him.


On the other hand, being first to act pre-flop after him leaves you open to other players who know you're trying to isolate and thus reraising with worse hands than you otherwise would.