97o in the BB

[Chris Daddy Cool]

Party .5/1.00

A pretty damn loose table, almost forgot what these games felt like. Several really bad players, some decent ones. Table is semi aggressive. UTG is decent. UTG+1 is LAGish, but not a maniac, and no real reads on anybody else.

UTG raises, coldcalled in 6 spots. SB calls as well. I see 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gif and call as well. 9 to the flop for 18 SB.

FLOP: 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB check. I check. UTG bets. UTG+1 raises. coldcalled in 3 spots. Folded back to me. I coldcall as well. UTG calls. 6 to the turn for 30 SB ---> 15 BB

TURN: 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I bet. UTG calls. UTG+1 raises. MP1 3bets. Fold. Coldcall by the button. 25-2 odds back to me. Whats my play?

[bisonbison]

For 17-1, I guess you can see the flop with trash hands.

I would fold the flop. You have bottom pair on a two flush board and hitting your kicker will put a gutshot 4-straight on the board. I know that the pot is huge and I hate folding, but yeah, fold.

I think I'd call the turn and pray.

[namknils]

Yikes, this is a tough hand. I think the call on the flop is ok due to all the coldcallers in front of you, and on the turn I would also just call. This is what I think I would do, but even while I'm typing it it doesn't seem right to do so much calling. You're probably up against a made flush and a few others are drawing to the flush or straight. Hopefully you filled up on the river.

[MrDannimal]

So on the flop you're getting 13:1 (it ended up 30 SB, you and UTG put in the last 4, so 26:2), right?

You're probably drawing to 1 truly clean out (7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif). The 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif probably gives someone a flush, the three non-heart 10s might get you a split (or a full win). As Bison says, the 3 9s are more likely to give you a 2nd or 3rd best hand than a winner.

So if you count the 10s as 1 out, you've got 2. So you're getting the odds to call, but really only if you're planning to call the turn action too. Given the table, that's pricey.

I'd have folded this flop without thinking much about it. If calling is right here (I'm not sure it is because of the chances I need to pay multiple BB onthe turn if I miss and want to continue), it's not by much and folding won't hurt you in the long run.

On the turn, you've got ten theoretical outs (7d, 3 8's, 3 J's, 3 9's), right? Now, some of them are probably in hands. But getting 12.5:1 you only need 4 of them to be live for calling to be right. I think this is an easy call once you get here.

[Bill Smith]

Wow, interesting. You know the flush is out there, and while I don't like to assume the worst, there is a slight possibility that 88, JJ, or 7 with a higher kicker is out there. Furthermore, the 9h is not a totally reliable out.

I'd fold. 5 people in the pot may appear to give you great implied odds, but I think in this case it just increases the possibility that your outs are tainted or they're already holding them.

[Bill Smith]

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn, you've got ten theoretical outs (7d, 3 8's, 3 J's, 3 9's), right? Now, some of them are probably in hands. But getting 12.5:1 you only need 4 of them to be live for calling to be right. I think this is an easy call once you get here.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, here's where I have trouble with this hand. Personally, I can't count the J's as outs because, with this many people still in, at least one was probably playing top pair. I forgot to consider the 8's, but I (perhaps stupidly) figured the same rule applies. Outs don't necessarily have to give you the nutz, but with 5 players still alive, it better be darn close.

I think you can call or fold in this spot and not be any worse for wear - maybe just mess with your variance. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[MortalNuts]

I'm a little surprised anyone is advocating folding the turn here. The pot is frickin huge, it's going to get even bigger, and you have little reason to believe that your 4 outs won't be good. Sure, someone may have a full house already, or the 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif may give someone a straight flush, but that's poker. And who do you think is most likely to have a full house here? Do you think UTG+1 raised a flop bet on his immediate right with a flopped set? Right now it's completely plausible that you're looking at something like Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif from him, maybe an overpair from UTG, a made flush from MP1, a high heart or low flush from button. Or who knows, someone could have a straight, two pair, etc, etc. The only action that would particularly scare me into believing my 9 outs have little chance of being good would be if you call, and now "decent" UTG comes to life and caps the turn.

So anyway, I say you have 4 outs here most of the time, so you're 10.5:1 against to hit. If you hit, you can expect to make 5 more BB over what's in the pot right now, making it a call even if you a) totally discount the 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif as an out (which I wouldn't) or b) think there's say a 30% chance of someone having a higher full house.

I guess it's fairly close, but we haven't even factored in the possibility that your opponents are just loony. /images/graemlins/smile.gif So yeah, I call.

just my 2c.

cheers,

mn