Pocket Jacks...One of the toughest hands to play in Poker (IMO)

[cartoonsoldier]

I have seen many people play them in different ways. Some go outright raising, some limp in hoping to hit a set, while some chase them till the river.

For me, I am never sure. I sometimes call and fold if overcards hit on the flop with it not being worth staying in on the flop, or go outright raising, also depends on the table.

How do you guys tend to play them? Different ways in different positions? Open raise UTG/UTG+1/UTG+2 or no? Raise in late?

I just had a hand in which I was UTG, I called with JJ. Flop had an Ace and a King. Checked all around. I bet on the turn, which was another A, called by one person. River is another Ace, I check, he checks. He was on the flush draw I take down the pot.

Before that I was UTG+2, this afternoon. I open-raised, called by 3 people. Flop didnt help me, with a Q out there. I bet again, called by 2 people. Turn was a rag, I bet, called by one person, fold by the other. River was a King and checked around. The other caller had a Q with a bad kicker (I think 6 or 7).

When I play NLHE, I tend to push-in with JJ PF a lot. With Limit/Micro-limit thats not a possibilty. What to do?

[cold_cash]

I like to keep things simple so I raise/3-bet JJ from every position, regardless of the number of limpers, 99.9% of the time.

[yzerman18]

[ QUOTE ]

When I play NLHE, I tend to push-in with JJ PF a lot. With Limit/Micro-limit thats not a possibilty. What to do?

[/ QUOTE ]

In NL, I treat JJ no different than any other small pair pre flop. I want to flop a set. I don't see pushing JJ in pre flop being a +EV. You are only going to get called down as a dog or a slight favorite to overcards.

As for limit, I'm not sure how to play them well. The small sample I have of limit hold'em, JJ has been a loser for me 9 out of 10 times.

[Rah]

I think you've got the right idea. Every pair below QQ, maybe even below KK, should be treated as a low pair, at least in microlimits. I want to see the flop with this one - if there are no overcards I'll be the aggressor, or if the board is checked around, but if an overcard fall I'll back off.
I've been losing too many KKs against people who makes a pair of aces on the flop to fire off JJ too aggressive against one or more overcards.
This is one of the things I find peculiar with WLLH - Jones advices to raise and 3-bet JJ, if I remember correctly. I don't think there's any point against a loose opposition. Nobody will fold preflop, and unless you hit a set or dodges overcards you're a big dog.

[Webster]

I'll be the aggressor until somebody takes it from me - HOWEVER - I'll back off on the river if I still have callers.

1. betting will probebly fold people that missed there draw - you win no bets
2. betting MIGHT get you a raise IF they have the good car
3. checking MIGHT induce a bluff and you can call 1 bet
4. checking will get the missed drawers to check.

[chief444]

Just raise, 3-bet, or cap pf. It's a great hand. You don't need to take it to the river if a couple of overcards come in a multiway pot. But not raising pf is missing out on a lot of value of a rare premium hand. Don't focus so much on the times you've lost with it. You don't need to win with it every time or even half of the time to make raising correct.

One other point...You are not helping your hand hold up at all by limping in pf either. There are actually some LL players who will fold a hand including an A,K, or Q to a raise. Many LL players will call regardless but you can't complain about your hand not holding up when you play it weakly and don't at least give them a reason to fold.

[Virox]

Here is a simple strategy (which is probably far from perfect...)

Preflop:
Try to adjust the number of opponents with your betting. Try to get either 1-2 opponents or a big multiway pot. 3-4 opponents is the worst.

Postflop multiway:
No overcards: bet, raise
Overcards: check-fold

Postflop 1-2 opponents:
No overcards: bet, raise
Overcards: bet until resistance, then either fold or go into check & call mode.

[cold_cash]

The point of raising/3-betting JJ is that you most likely have the best hand, and you're going to win much of the time unimproved.

[bisonbison]

I think you've got the right idea. Every pair below QQ, maybe even below KK, should be treated as a low pair, at least in microlimits.

This is very, very wrong.

JJ, wins 50% of the time for me. I make almost a BB/hand on it.

TT wins 48% of the time for me. I make .75 BB/hand on it.

88 wins 25% of the time. I make .17 BB/hand.

No lower pair wins more often than 88 in my stats, though I'm more profitable with some.

There's a huge difference between the pairs. AA is clearly best. KK is clearly second. But pairs as low as 99 and 88 can and should be pushed aggressively in shorthanded or tight-game situations.

[cartoonsoldier]

Thanks for the intresting comments, I guess it is better to be aggressive PF, and play pretty much depending on the board Post-flop.

[bakku]

I hope Ed Miller, Dynasty, Clark, etc. don't read this thread

[Chiefs Fan]

I agree with you completely. I only have 10k hands played but at .5/1 paradise I play JJ and even TT very aggressively. I will raise JJ from any position and 3-bet with it almost everytime.

I've had JJ 45 times with a 93.33% PFR and winning .91 BB and a win% of 42.22

I've had TT 50 times with an 80% PFR and winning 1.56 BB and a win% of 52.

99 46 times with 45% PFR and winning 1.17 BB and win% of 43.5

88 51 times with a 23% PFR and winning .57 BB and a win% of 25.

Should I push 88 a little harder?

I know my samples are still small.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you've got the right idea. Every pair below QQ, maybe even below KK, should be treated as a low pair, at least in microlimits.

This is very, very wrong.

JJ, wins 50% of the time for me. I make almost a BB/hand on it.

TT wins 48% of the time for me. I make .75 BB/hand on it.

88 wins 25% of the time. I make .17 BB/hand.

No lower pair wins more often than 88 in my stats, though I'm more profitable with some.

There's a huge difference between the pairs. AA is clearly best. KK is clearly second. But pairs as low as 99 and 88 can and should be pushed aggressively in shorthanded or tight-game situations.

[/ QUOTE ]

I must be doing something wrong. JJ is the worst of all the pairs for me. I think my trouble is getting away from them. To compare to your numbers (based on just over 10,000 hands):

JJ, wins 35% of the time for me (my 4th highest winning percentage for pairs). However, I lose almost .50 BB/hand on it (my biggest $$ pairs loser).

TT wins 33% of the time for me (#5). But I just about break even on it, dollar-wise.

88 wins 31% of the time (#7, percentage-wise). But I make about .75 BB/hand (my 4th best pair dollar-wise behind AA, QQ, and 99).

For comparison, my 3rd worst pair is KK, where I'm winning 33% of the time, but losing just under .50BB/hand.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you've got the right idea. Every pair below QQ, maybe even below KK, should be treated as a low pair, at least in microlimits. I want to see the flop with this one - if there are no overcards I'll be the aggressor, or if the board is checked around, but if an overcard fall I'll back off.
I've been losing too many KKs against people who makes a pair of aces on the flop to fire off JJ too aggressive against one or more overcards.
This is one of the things I find peculiar with WLLH - Jones advices to raise and 3-bet JJ, if I remember correctly. I don't think there's any point against a loose opposition. Nobody will fold preflop, and unless you hit a set or dodges overcards you're a big dog.

[/ QUOTE ]

It must be a new lunar cycle if this is starting again. This advice is very bad. This is the dangerous flipside of the any-2 can win belief. Any 2 can win, so I want to see the flop cheap and get away if I don't flop well even though I was a huge favorite before the flop. Yuck. Take this logic far enough and you'll see every flop.

Push your preflop edges. Raising and 3-betting big pairs preflop is an easy way to make money. Overplaying big pairs when you flop overcards is a different issue. As you play more you'll get better at playing these situations. But JJ is a huge hand. Everyone here with PT and more than 15,000 or so hands probably sees that it's their 4th or 5th most profitable hand. The limpers at your table are usually drawing to 3 outs or running cards against your JJ so make them pay to see the flop.

[sfer]

Hey dfs, you might be doing something wrong but more likely you just haven't played enough hands. That's like a sample of 40-50 JJ hands, right? Not enough to draw meaningful, systematic conclusions yet about your play.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey dfs, you might be doing something wrong but more likely you just haven't played enough hands. That's like a sample of 40-50 JJ hands, right? Not enough to draw meaningful, systematic conclusions yet about your play.

[/ QUOTE ]

True -- it's 48. I always forget that when I start digging into individual hands. 10K hands is decent for overall stats, but not for specifics.

Thanks for pointing that out, sfer.

[sublime]

How to play JJ, A beginners guide: By Sublime

Preflop: Raise
Post flop: It depends

[Ed Miller]

I hope Ed Miller, Dynasty, Clark, etc. don't read this thread

Dude, I stay way clear of any thread about pocket jacks now. Some people just don't get it.

[bakku]

Dude, I stay way clear of any thread about pocket jacks now. Some people just don't get it.

I don't even bother posting links to your old JJ threads anymore /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[juanez]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

For a wealth of info, do a search for Ed Miller posts regarding pocket Jacks.

[Zetack]

I agree its a near auto raise or 3-bet. However its a matter of cold calling a 3 or four bet...it may be worth taking a pass.

--Zetack

[cold_cash]

Certainly. I'm sure there are times where it's correct to muck JJ before the flop. My point was those situations are definetely few and far between. That's why I said 99.9% instead of 100%.

If a super rock open raises UTG and gets raised by another rock before it gets to you, folding seems fine by me. I don't think that situation comes up enough for it to be a big concern, however. It hasn't for me, at least.

[Jaran]

My question to all of you who seem to think JJ is not a strong hand is if you were given the choice of playing the next 50 hands w/JJ or two random cards, what would you choose?

-Jaran

(I take the JJ every time)

[SnakeRat]

Do you think the players on Party would notice that I am getting Jacks everyhand? I wonder how many hands it would take b4 the table cleared out.

[Jaran]

On Party? Nah /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

-Jaran

[Jim Easton]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you've got the right idea. Every pair below QQ, maybe even below KK, should be treated as a low pair, at least in microlimits.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't close to the right idea.

[afk]

I take pleasure from raising JJ.

[TBone]

Always raise them if there's no raise, and many times 3-bet.

I struggled quite a bit with JJ and TT when I first started playing them, because I played them too timid. If you raise them, it actually makes your odds of taking down the pot on the flop better IMO. If an overcard flops, I still bet. If I get raised when an overcard flops, and there is no draw out there, many times you can assume you're beat but I don't always fold to a raise. Now, if you get 2 or 3 callers on your flop bet, you might begin to wonder if someone paired the overcard.

I can't begin to tell you the amount of times I've won a showdown when an overcard flops, and I've got JJ or TT.

T