A9s

I limp on the button with Ac9c. 7 way action including the blinds. 10/20 game. All of my opponents are weak to average except the fellow to my right who plays pretty well.


Flop: 5c6dJc


Everyone checks to me. I bet. 3 players call. The player to my right checkraises. We all call.


5 players. $170 pot.


Turn: Js


The player to my right bets. I raise. He calls after the other three players folded.


Heads-up. $250 pot.


River: 8d


He checks. I bet.


Comments welcome.

Preflop: Easy call.


Flop: Seems like a routine bet with a flush draw. Easy call of the raise, since you want to create a volume pot.


Turn: The flop checkraiser would have probably led on the flop with a Jack, so I like the turn raise semibluff (that is my favorite play). When he calls, it shows that he probably has outs to trip Jacks -- probably a straight or flush draw.


River: It would be tough for two pair to call here, and since there is a decent chance the other player had a hand like 7-8, I like the bet.

skp-


I would absolutely play the hand the same way. I think this is a good example of why betting the flop (as opposed to taking the free card) with your nut draw, can be correct. Not only do you get value for your draw, it can open up another door which leads to a win.


It's hard to put anyone on a jack. Would a good player check/raise a jack? More likely his hand has drawing potential.


When he bets the turn, I think it's worth the chance that he didn't flop a set. With 9.5 bets in the pot I think it's worth it to give up the implied odds from the other players and use your read to win this pot, knowing that it's probably gonna take another bet on the river to do it.


I'm almost certain you won this hand. Hope I'm right. Then again, would you be posting this if it were routine?

A friend who I discussed the hand with questioned the river bet given that I had a hand (Ace high) to show down.


I told him that I had to bet in case the river card paired his flush or straight draw. He hummed and hawwed and said if the river card paired him, the other chap would make a crying call.


If the river card had been a card higher than a Ten and it gave my opponent a pair, I believe that the bet is much less likely to succeed as a bluff (although I probably still make it based solely on pot odds). It's a funny observation on my part really given that it really should make no difference if the other guy hits a pair of queens or a pair of 8's on the end as he should know that I have either got trips/boat or nothing at all. But psychologically, it seems to me that guys simply can't fold the paired Queen (or any other overcard that pairs) at the end while they might more readily fold the paired eight (or any other undercard that pairs).


Perhaps you can comment on my observation.

The flop call of the raise is somewhat debatable i.e. it might pay to 3 bet now and knock out the opposition, collect some dead money and maintain the initiative on the turn in a heads-up situation against an opponent who likely has to make a pair to win (of course, he will be focussing on hitting his draw rather than pairing and this hopeful misfocus on his part will play to your advantage).


BTW, I make an observation on the river bet under Kevin's post. You might want to comment.

Interesting hand SKP... I would have raised preflop on the button with A9s because your hand wins more than its fair share, and also because if you flop a big draw you tie people to the pot (also you probably have the biggest ace). I might raise in this spot with any suited ace as well.


Besides the preflop play I like the way you played the hand, because you said the checkraiser played well, indicating that there was a decent chance he was checkraising the flop with a draw. I'm curious what you would do if you got threebet on the turn by the good player, do you fold right there because of the high likelyhood that you are drawing dead? (I think this is correct even though you could be up against a hand like AJ). Even though I like your play of the hand, I don't think it is nearly as "correct" as some of the posters believe, because your play looks somewhat like a bluff because any powerful hand that you would have raised the turn with you most likely would have threebet with on the flop to try and kill the field behind you, making your raise on the turn look rather suspect to a great player. However I think this bluff is likely to work against your typical good but not expert player, who is holding a hand like 78.


Also keep in mind that the chance that your opponent has a draw is lowered by the fact that you have clubs, and that he might not raise in that spot with an openended straight draw (except 78s) because he fears he is against a flush draw and drawing to six outs.


Shawn

If he had 3 bet, I was a goner but only because I am quite sure that this chap would not 3 bet without a full house (in fact, the question of him 3 betting on the turn with AJ would not arise in the first place as he would have bet AJ on the flop).


I had a very similar type of hand once in the Planet Poker 20-40 game. I can't quite recall the specifics of that hand but not only did I call the 3 bet on the turn but I also called the river with my missed Ace high flush draw. The bummer part was that the other guy was also on a flush draw (as I suspected) but had paired on the river. His bluff turned out to be a value bet...damn....hate it when that happens /images/smile.gif

I haven't read the other posts, but I think the play shows excellent hand reading, since the check-raiser is clearly raising a hand for value...........I would assume a lower flush perhaps with a straight draw. He might play a set the same way, but since he didn't reraise the turn, it looks like you'll pick up this pot no matter what happens.

Hmmm...Player to your right almost has to have a draw. Little else makes sense - he should bet any made hand - a free card is too dangerous.


I would have 3 bet the flop to isolate this player with the likely best hand.


I think assuming he does not have a jack is correct.


The river 8 is very bad. Is is extremely likely he has a 78, possibly of clubs. However, you have the 9 of clubs, which means he can't have the 89 of clubs - another likely hand. He may also have a smal pair and a 4 flush - 6c7c, 6c8c.


Even so, he might have trouble calling you with an 8. Then again, you may have "screwed the pooch" by not 3 betting the flop - this play would have been almost automatic if you had a jack, regardless of your kicker.


So, I am not a big fan of letting the others in past the flop. Given that you did not 3 bet, your turn and river are justifiable. However, the fact that he should discount you having a jack (if he reads that well) might make a river check the better play.


Dan Z.

skp,


A top player could very well be on a straight or flush draw with his checkraise to build a pot on the flop. A player holding most other made hands (even sets) would bet this flop when most of the field checks to him in the cutoff.


On the turn when the board paired the jack he is correct to bet with either a draw or a made hand, especially since he knows you don't need a jack to make the previous round's bet on the flop and will lay down second pair. So I like your raise here with a big draw. When he just calls I think a draw is the most likely hand. One of those hands could be the 87.


When the river comes an eight your bet should make an 87 lay down. If he held this hand he was drawing to the straight, not the pair, and he has little reason to believe you don't have a big made hand.


Regards,


Rick

Actually, he has every reason to doubt SKP has a big made hand.


1 - lack of flop 3 bet should rule out a jack.

2 - if SKP has a set, he should still 3 bet the flop, but may not. But he definitely would not raise the turn with the full house, foregoing the overcalls.


Dan Z.

If I had 66, I would probably 3 bet the flop because my read on the other guy would be that he is on a draw and may not bet the turn. If I were up against a player who I thought would virtually always bet the turn because of his show of strength on the flop, I may very well just smoothcall the flop and then look to raise on the turn.


Also, if I did have 66, I am pretty sure that I would raise the turn. The 10-20 game that I play in has a lot of gamblers; they would not fold a flush draw or even a straight draw in the face of a paired board and facing two bets cold. Thus, they likely have hands that (a) can't even call one bet or (b) will call multiple bets.


Seriously, it's the most ridiculous 10-20 game that you will find anywhere in the world.

Dan,


Even if skp had a small set on the flop a turn raise would not be that bad since the other weak players won't always lay down their draws when the pot is this big.


Even if you think a full house would just call the turn skp certainly played like he had a made hand such as AJ or even KJ. Why wouldn't skp (with AJ or KJ) bet the flop but not three bet a checkraise that is most likely a pot building raise? His turn raise is frisky but punishes draws and if he is three bet he can probably fold since he will almost always be up against a full.


Regards,


Rick

SKP,


Two points:


The lack of a flop 3 bet should give the opponent enough doubt that you have a J or a FH to call on the river. He may not be certain, but he should have enough doubt to take huge odds on a call. Nothing is certain, though I promise I 3 bet with these hands in this spot (unless opponent is a lock to bet the turn).


Weakest 10-20 game anywhere? What do you expect - if I invited my friends over, got out the Monopoly set, divided up the bills, and played 10-20 HE, we'd have a super weak game, too. /images/smile.gif


Dan Z.

Dan-


I see your point on #1. But I still wouldn't rule out a hand like AJ for skp. It's not hard to imagine someone betting the flop partly for value, partly hoping to get check/raised by someone in early position, and partly hoping to get someone to fold who would've been correct to call. Now when he gets check/raised by the wrong player on his right, he may opt to just call this raise hoping to force the field to call two big bets cold on the turn. I'm not saying this is how skp would've played AJ, but it's plausible for some players.


On your #2.. If I had 66 in skp's position, I would almost certainly 3-bet the turn. This pot's big enough to swing away and not risk getting drawn out on with an under-full. If someone did hold a jack, a river 5 (or spiking their kicker) counterfeits you. If someone holds an eight or medium pocket pair another jack counterfeits you).


As to foregoing their overcalls... I never underestimate bad players. There's plenty of them willing to get their money in there drawing dead to a flush.

I think your friend makes a valid point. Ace high does have some show down potential here especially since you've got him on a draw, but I think your observation is more accurate in this situation. This pot has gotten big enough to where you want to give your opponent every chance to make a mistake or come up with the wrong play. If he might become psychologically crippled enough into thinking a pair of eights after missing his flush draw is still a bust, while he would've called had he backed into a pair of queens, then it's well worth the bet on your part. IMO-

I think a 3 bet on the flop to get everybody out is the right play. This guy would have to have a draw. Either flush, 78, or 34 maybe in clubs. You want it heads up with best hand against this guy with positon. You will probably get someone off a smaller pair by doing this.


The river should be checked. There are too many players that will not lay down on the river with a pair head up in this situation. The hand your worried about is 78. Everything else you beat. What if your opponent is very tricky and reraises the river suspecting your holding, now it puts you in tough spot. Check it down and hope it was 34 or other club draw.

Rick,


Thank you for posting this hand! You just helped me fill a hole I semi-realized I had. Too often I would fold this type of hand when the player bets before me when the second Jack appears. This is where paying attention to the previous bets comes in to play. Previously I would "stick it out" with these hands because I thought the player was bluffing - and sometimes he/she was - but other times I'd get killed by Trips. Paying attention to betting in addition to my pretty good player reading skills will help to better read these types of hands and figure out what to do.


Thanks for sharing!

some may argue that a raise pre-flop is in order, but against weak opponents I would not raise a suited ace pre-flop. The best reason to raise, which is to tie people to the flop with lesser draws, isn't necessary when playing against weak players. They'll probably call with weaker hands anyway.


The player to your right wouldn't risk giving a free card with a jack, two pair, or trips, so his checkraise is almost certainly a draw. I would reraise the flop. There is a very good chance that at least two other players will call, in which case you're making money on your raise. If not, a raise is still a good play since you've given yourself a great opportunity to win the pot without improving.


I think raising the turn is a good play. Even though someone could be playing JT or worse and be afraid to bet, all under pairs will fold.


Betting the river is the correct play. If he folds 78 or 6c7c one out of ten times, you make money. A checkraise is very unlikely, so you aren't risking much.

im guessing you were checkraised on the river.


you play this hand well. this 10-20 you describe seems pretty typcial of the limit from what you describe (a bunch of weak/average players making little mistakes all over the place).


i like rick's analysis of the hand best.

Oh ya...results...that minor detail...well, I bet and he folded. I suppose that there is a good chance that my Ace high was best. Still, I think that a bet is called for in case he paired the eight. As someone below said, he only has to fold it a small percentage of the time in order to make the bet the correct play.