loose 10-20 game hand

Very loose 10-20 game. This one bothers me for some reason, not just because I could have won a decent pot.


I have As10d on the button. EP limps (loose, pretty str8forward), MP limps (very loose, somewhat aggressive), I call, blinds call/check.


Flop is: 8c 10c Js


Blinds check, EP bets, MP calls. What's your play?


My evaluation was that EP probably has a pair but not necessarily a jack; if I raise, he won't reraise unless he has a monster. EP could have a very wide range of hands (including gutshots, small clubs, A9, etc.). So I raised. Blinds fold, EP calls and MP now reraises. I fold. I had seen him show down some odd holdings but I hadn't seen him bluff or semi-bluff anything of note, so I figured I was in deep trouble. Of course, on the flop people make a lot of sketchy raises, but this looks too much like a bad situation that could get much worse.


Turn was a rag, river a ten. EP check-called MP down and won with 9h10h as MP had Kc9c.


Should I just call on the flop and see what develops? Anyone fold on the flop? Is this misguided aggression? I am having trouble dealing with the looser players lately when I am medium-strong....

The texture of the flop makes it difficult to play on past the flop. I certainly cannot blame you for folding to the reraise; in fact, there is a good argument that you should have folded to the first bet.


If the flop had been JsTc5d or something, you may want to play on.

Scott,


I would fold on the flop and don't think it is that close. A "loose pretty str8forward" early limper bets into two players after both blinds check. The flop is a J-T-8 with a two flush not in your suit. The pot is relatively small with no pre-flop raise. There is already a very loose aggressive caller. You have second pair, top overcard, but no draw or backdoor draw. You are usually already beat and could be drawing dead or close to dead. In the unlikely event you are leading, someone is probably drawing to beat you (this turned out to be the case).


Thinking that you should have hung in on the flop is letting results overcome logic IMO.


Regards,


Rick

skp,


You wrote: "If the flop had been JsTc5d or something, you may want to play on."


With this flop there is no flush draw or one card straight draw. OTOH, it makes it more likely the lead bettor has a hand rather than a draw. So I would still fold although it is much closer.


Regards,


Rick

I can see that. I think it's a weakness I have when I am playing with so many super-loose opponents. In a tough game, my A-10 would go flying into the muck on the flop, but I have to remember that loose players get (and bet) good hands sometimes, too. Why play the guessing game; wait until you have the best of it....

As i was reading your post I though that I would have raised preflop, since it would be better to knock out the blinds, and since both players were described as loose there is a good chance that you had the best hand. But if the game is loose then I thought that a raise might not allow you to win on the flop if rags fell and might not knock out the blinds. So if you need to imporve anyway then a raise is not correct in this situation


I have trouble with these hands as well and any input would be appreciated.


Pat

I would have either raised or folded. For one small bet, you get a lot of benefits by raising on the button.


I'll leave it for other Angelos to elaborate.

A month ago I would have said "no way". But lately my pre-flop raising standards have become more Abdullian (or is Fekallian?). The only concern I would have is raising with a dominated hand. I know many fairly solid players who will limp in early position with AJ and even AQ. Even so, it's probably worth the extra small bet to drive out at least one of the blinds. I'm also curious about what others would do in this spot.

8c-Jc-Ts and you have As-Td. What cards would feel good on the turn and what cards would feel bad?


Good cards for you (that either help your hand or don't apparently hurt it): non-club 2s, 3s, 4s, 5s, 6s; non-club Ts: total 17 cards.


Worrisome cards: K; Q; 9; 7; plus the remaining clubs: total 22 cards.


Could go either way: non-club Aces; non-club Jacks; 8; total 8 cards.


Not an exciting picture. This plus the fact that there are two players still left to act (the blinds), plus the fact that this is a limper's flop (middling high two-tone cards bunched together), plus the fact you don't have top pair, plus the fact that both of your cards are not clubs, which means you could hit and it will make someone a flush. . .

Figure you have 3 opponents on average with this hand. I think your hand will perform much better in a unraised pot against loose players, getting 4-1 instead of 3-1 in a bigger pot. I really hate to raise with hands like this unless the blinds are tight and the 2 limpers will leave quietly if we all miss the flop.


A free card does not do you so much good with this hand - in contrast to hands like JQs, KQ, even AJ and KJ. Once you get the ten in your hand, it's value, and it's frequency of being worth taking to the turn, drop off significantly. Notice your hand is also unsuited, and can only make one straight, and can never flop overcards and a gutshot or an open - end straight draw. It's just not that exciting.


You will usually have to make some kind of hand to win against 3 opponents, who will now be guessing one of your cards correctly.


Just some thoughts.


Dan Z.

I think you need to raise preflop here. You describe both players as loose. Its very likely you have the best hand and want to make the loose limpers pay for limping in with likely trash.


-ActionBob

Some

I hate A-10o or suited for that matter. Of course this situation is a little different since the poster states that both players are very loose but when I see K-10 or A-10 in a full game, there in the muck quickly. Anyone else?


Jay

Another thing, if you're waiting to you have the best of it, since these lose players play so many bad hands, you have to sometimes just check-call them down. You do sometimes have the best of it! That's what's wrong with ATo though. It's not a strong holding. My style of play is very very low variance, and I'd fold ATo even at a lose table for this very reason, it's not a "I have the best of it" enough type of hand.


So, even though the table's loose, I'd only lower my standards a tiny amount. The biggest strategy change would be not raising with AQo type hands, since I lose a lot of the blind stealing/no showdown equity of raising with those types of hands.

Against loose limpers, you are giving up a lot of +EV by folding AT before the flop in this type situation. Sure, we all want to lower our variance, but lowering variance at the expense of lowering +EV is not what I'm looking for.


Just my 2 cents.


-ActionBob

Hi ActionBob, would you call or raise here with ATo? If you raised preflop, would you bet when the flop is checked to you? What if first to act bets with his 4 flush and gutshot straight on the flop, do you raise or fold?


Curious to see what you would do, thanks!


- Tony

I hear a lot of people talking about "limping in with trash" and "making people pay for limping in with trash." However, in games with lots o limpers, I think that it is you who is playing a trashy hand. It just cannot win a lot of money here - it can lose you a ton. What flops really allow you to be in control besides 2-pair, trips (which can be dangerous, at times), or the straight? Not much, IMO. Note that pushing hands hard and being in control is where you make a good chunk of money in these games, with the remainder coming from making draws that you wouldn't get to make in tougher games. This includes getting free cards checked around on the flop and getting in cheaply before the flop with med suited connectors, A-x/K-x suited, etc. Both hands that were showed down were fine hands in such a game without much raising before the flop. They are big drawing hands - this is a multiway situation. I'd raise with the A-10s on the button in this game to build a huge pot, although it's fine if the blinds fold too, leaving you to tangle with the limpers, and dump the A-10 offsuit faster than you can say "bye-bye bankroll."

Jay,


If you always throw away AT offsuit except when stealing blinds or coming over the top of a single weak limper you can't be that wrong. This is a classic win a little, lose a lot "trouble" hand that is best played multi-way only after obtaining a lot of experience.


Regards,


Rick


PS Being suited ads quite a bit of value to a hand in a multiway pot so please play AT suited.

Well, I'm not real sure how I'd play the hand after the flop. It would depend upon my read of the other players. I haven't really gone back to look at the rest of the hand in question, but the point I was trying to make was the strength of hands like AT preflop against a couple of loose limpers.


I think you had said that it was not a strong holding. I would seriously disagree here. AT is a fairly strong hand and makes a decent profit against a couple of loose limpers in the long run. And it should certainly be raised preflop against them as preflop is where it makes most of its profit.


Is it AA or KK? Certainly not. But it definitely wins more than its fair share against a couple of loose limpers.


Just my 2 cents.


-ActionBob

I see your point! ATo isn't worth a call.... even though it might win more than it's fair share, most of it's value comes from it's pot stealing equity. In the games I play pot stealing oppurtunities come rarely... (very low limits online).


I prefer to even limp with AKo to from EP in the games I play and check-fold the flop or check-raise/bet if I flop a pair.


Blasphemy, yes. /images/smile.gif


- Tony