Am I just a chimp? - HELP

[blubster]

god, I've just had my face B**CH SLAPPED at Pokerstars 2-4

In about 7 sessions maybe a few more,the past few days , I've lost over 100BB. Probably 115BB.(Played Hands about 1,650) Today, I lost about every hand I went to the river with. It was amazing. I even started cussing at a fish which I never do.

I don't know if it's just a bad run but my gut right now is kinda telling me I'm not playing enough hands. The 2-4 at Pokerstars is MUCH tighter then the 5-10 at Party cause I've noticed much LESS action when I do make a hand. Play after the flop SELDOM gets crazy like it does at Party so often I've noticed when my AK hits and I bet a lot of times it gets folded around, I guess what I mean is I'm not getting much action with my good hands.

I haven't really been as aggressive maybe as I should for instance I haven't been raising hands like JTs, KTs, QTs, UTG, which I think most here recommend so maybe I should pick up my aggression.

I've just never lost over 100BB before let alone so QUICKLY that I thought something's not right with my game

I played Party 1-2 6 max for a while but that got boring real fast and I was easily killing that game cause theres so many fish there that my good hands were always getting paid off.

I don't know I think I have to learn how and when to play hands like K9s, K8s, cause I never play these hands unless I'm completing with K9s in the sb but I think I should be playing these hands more.

arrrggggghhh.

anyone play 2-4 at pokerstars? any general tips you can give?

i guess in the meantime i'll go for another whirl and raise anything that's playable and see what happens.

blubster

[Peter_rus]

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cause I've noticed much LESS action when I do make a hand.

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That's why - you're readable - your preflop raises crying them FOLD IMMEDIATELY or call-if-no-flop-fold. Add more bluff and marginal raises.

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Play after the flop SELDOM gets crazy like it does at Party so often I've noticed when my AK hits and I bet a lot of times it gets folded around, I guess what I mean is I'm not getting much action with my good hands.


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Just raise more and than you see - in some time they will adapt and trying to move on your way. But not all of them can play this style good and not all of them notice, when you change gears to become more tighter.

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JTs, KTs, QTs, UTG

[/ QUOTE ] I raise all of them and higher UTG and in addition A5s+.

Meaninful agression let you buy more pots and increase action when you really flop something. It will increase your looses too, but however while it makes higher ev - it will decrease your variance.

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K9s, K8s

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Raise K9s - UTG, K8s - 1MP and also - button and CO as well. How often you try to steal blinds? If there are often no flop - than you must attack very much.

I think your problem is that you feel uncomfortable (when raising PF) when you miss the flop. But just remember - when you miss the flop - 1 of your opponent missing it too about 60% of time and 2 of your opponents missing about 40% of time, so you're more often ahead on flop 559 with your A4s heads up with blind and even against 2 if they are loose.

In a little time - players will become put you on raise any ace - and will fold if flop has an ace, while actually you can have something like QJo - but they will fold KJo. You will become less readable and much less comfortable to play with. But don't become over-agressive - fold marginal if raised by weak players - don't fold marginal if you heads up with agressive.

[auntieklava]

Hi Blubster. To start with the obvious, a 100BB downswing is fairly common shorthaned, I think Ulysses gave a rough estimate of twice per 10000 hands (but I might be wrong on that one). It still sucks, but keep in mind that winning it back is just a matter of time.

As for your suggested solution of loosening up, you are definitely heading down the wrong path. If the game is 5-handed or less, opening UTG with JTs, KTs, QTs is standard, offsuit these hands should be towards the bottom-end of your starters 5-handed. 6-handed I'll muck these UTG most of the time, and maybe limp if the game is playing loose-passive. With respect to hands like K9s, K8s etc., you're not giving up anything in this game by always mucking those preflop (I'll raise with them on the button - that's usually it unless there are 4 or fewer players, or the blinds are tight and straight-forward). By being more selective preflop, you create an image which allows you to take down more hands unimproved - and gives you much more semibluff strength. Don't worry about creating an image where people stop paying off your good hands; the pots you play you will generally play aggressively, which implies that people will keep coming after you (only in a more passive and predictable way, which is very good for you).

It also seems you're overlooking the fact that a bad run is usually a combination of not only draw-outs and second-bests, but also getting many of your good hands when the other players happen to have nothing. There's not much to do about this, just make sure you don't become paranoid with thoughts of how readable you are - if you are playing well it's just a coincidence. One final thing to keep in mind when you are loosing heavily is that your opponents will notice and start taking shots at you. This is a good time to stay away from marginal hands, as you're more likely te be put to difficult decisions by players who may or may not be trying to push you around. If you're comfortable with playing on under these conditions then by all means do so, but it's never a bad idea to consider a table-change if you drop a fair amount very quickly (I'd estimate that somewhere around the 20BB-mark is where a "standard" opponent starts taking shots at you).

Hope that helps - and stay away from those K8s hands /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[CORed]

In addition to raising more preflop, you need to bet the flop more. If you are heads-up or three-way, you should be betting overcards and middle pair good kicker fairly often if the board is not coordinated. Don't go too far with these hands: You should be prepared to fold the turn if you are raised and bet into on the turn, unless your hand improves, but this can set up turn check-raises with better hands. In tight games, you need to bluff and semi-bluff quite a bit to make any profit, and you need to vary your strategy so you're not too easy to read. The ABC game that is so profitable against losse fish can get you killed against decent opponents.

[naphand]

I think you are making too many generalisations Peter. I would strongly recommend that people take a look at the games on PokerStars (in comparison to Party) before making broad statements like this. Your advice is good, but may be mis-placed; there are more players on Stars with an idea of how to play, and huge variablity in the pool of players.

At $2/4 you typically have about 6-10 tables to select from, and some days they all seem populated with players who are tight and sensible. Some days it is more fun than Party. The aggression level is higher, and the aggression is better placed, they play better post-flop. But it does vary hugely, so you need to adapt your game far more than playing at Party.

blubster - one of the features of a bad run is not just losing big pots, and getting drawn out, but also only winning small ones. My experience of playing Stars is that the losing streaks are pretty brutal, if your game slips at all the others seem very capable of taking advantage.

If you are getting a lot of folds on the flop, it could just be that your opponents have nothing playable (as part of your poor run). I would not advocate loosening up your game too much, though you could try a number of things to throw your opponents (preferably with position). Most of all, be aware and critical of the games you are in, if they are tough (and they can be) or start to tighten right up, sit out for a couple of orbits and just watch, then decide to re-start or leave. I've seen what I think are good players, turn into the stupidest calling stations and people go off on aggro-bursts for the hell of it. The game is much more mixed ability, a lot less predictable.

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Meaninful agression let you buy more pots and increase action when you really flop something. It will increase your looses too, but however while it makes higher ev - it will decrease your variance.

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I'm not sure it is this easy, Peter, to both "buy more pots" and "get more action". Generally, people are either folding to you, or they are countering you. It's a really big skill to be able to balance this well, there are a few people posting here who clearly can do this, but it's no easy fix.

Also "increasing your losses" (and presumably increasing your winnings) does not reduce variance; it increases variance, it must by definition, but hopefully gains you a better EV.

I don't think any reasonable player is going to be overly readable on his raises, after all the range of raising hands is quite large, esp. considering position. Loosening up UTG raises is asking for more grief, except in the right game (tight/predictable). Raising 77-JTs-KQo-A9s people cannot put you on any A, if they do they lose. They will fold an A flop because they have missed, the typical Stars player will raise you with an A on A high flop, whether you raised PF or not. The Stars post-flop game is very different to Party, and blubster needs to adapt by tightening up and varying his play a little with his good hands, rather than trying to get too clever in a lot of marginal situations. Throwing in a few unwarranted raises can be used to good effect, but needs to be well-judged to avoid spewing chips (out of position, against an aggro, no chance of a cheap showdown etc.). When you are playing well, are confident, and have the right table-image, marginal plays becomes a lot less marginal.

blubster - drop back to Stars $1/$2 for a bit - a lot of the players there jump between the two so you will probably run into quite a few of the $2/$4 crowd. The $1/$2 Stars game is still an order of magnitude better (on many days, at least) than Party $1/$2 and (from what I have seen) can frequently be tougher than Party $5/$10. Re-set your game, collect notes on players, and address your losing streak without paying too much. Once you feel more confident, step back up. This process should take you no more than a week, depdnig on how low you have sunk.

[Bad Beat Coming]

This may be really obvious, but, if this:

"I played Party 1-2 6 max for a while but that got boring real fast and I was easily killing that game cause theres so many fish there that my good hands were always getting paid off"

is true,

why in Gods name would you shift? I dont play not to be bored. I play to win money. So....

[naphand]

I made the same move. Reason: I wanted play Party $5/$10 but did not have the bankroll.

Stars offer limits of $1/$2, $2/$4, $3/$6 as well as $5/$10.

I could grind it out on Party $1/$2 playing total fish and then make a huge leap to $5/$10 or I could play $1/$2 with the same bankroll and improve my game (games are tougher than Party) and move up in smaller increments.

But I see no reason not to try and improve my game without needing to take large risks, or take a very long time to build a BR and then struggle at a level I am totally unfamiliar with. I also think that playing different sites and the different game conditions involved, can only improve your game. I don't play for a living, and have a regular income (part-time), and while I enjoy the money I get from poker, improving my game is more important to me now than an extra $500 per month at $1/$2.

[stripsqueez]

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I haven't really been as aggressive maybe as I should for instance I haven't been raising hands like JTs, KTs, QTs, UTG, which I think most here recommend so maybe I should pick up my aggression

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perhaps in a 5 max game

unless you are way too loose your choice of starting hands is not likely to be the primary cause of you going crap

i would play tighter - play ridiculously tight for a while if for no reason other than to demonstrate you have the discipline to do so

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I've just never lost over 100BB before let alone so QUICKLY that I thought something's not right with my game

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now your offending me - i went through 110BB's in 2 hours last night - its a completely un-newsworthy story though

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i guess in the meantime i'll go for another whirl and raise anything that's playable and see what happens

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fine plan, but wait for the big hands rather than mess with the marginal ones and dont stop betting when you get them

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[blubster]

Thanks for the suggestions guys. Maybe I am playing enough hands and just one of those baaad runs. Just new to me becuase I've played 3-6 games(full) 3 and 4 tables 24/7 for several months and have never even lost 100BB once.

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why in Gods name would you shift? I dont play not to be bored. I play to win money. So....

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well because my goal is not to win $200 a week playing poker. it's to win a lot more then that which you cannot do at $1-$2

Also, I think it's less an issue of me being read then people are just generally tighter there because often i've got no action after flop just being at a table for a short period.

well, thanks for the advice eveeryone, i'm gonna go back and not be as loose as i was already planning on being. maybe my luck will change.

later
blubster

[Peter_rus]

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I think you are making too many generalisations Peter. I would strongly recommend that people take a look at the games on PokerStars (in comparison to Party) before making broad statements like this.

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You're right. Read my statements with IMO. I just claimed my vision of what to do in situation if i encounter it.

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I'm not sure it is this easy, Peter, to both "buy more pots" and "get more action". Generally, people are either folding to you, or they are countering you.

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I use random tricks against ones who trying to be counter-agressive to me to cool them up. I can throw away meaningful amount of money in one game just to gather more when i really have hand. Generally normal player - don't want to re-raise hands like KJo preflop - or play it postflop while flop is A92 but while i betting much - i find that players become looser and can proceed whith K9s on this flop till river - giving me much money when i'm ahead and take a little of my money when i'm behind.

I think the main way to break out my aggro is to re-raising preflop. But it's surprise to me that in 5/10 not much people capable of this style even when they know for sure - i raise marginal hands.

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it increases variance, it must by definition, but hopefully gains you a better EV.

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Yep, i was wrong.

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Raising 77-JTs-KQo-A9s people cannot put you on any A, if they do they lose.

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That's what i'm talking about higher but i have a bit larger range of hands to raise UTG. Some of my hands to raise have for sure -ev but i believe it overpayed whyle i play my good hands and more i gaining an image when other players feel themselves very uncomfortable turning themselves to both - calling stations or LAGs often greater than me /images/graemlins/smile.gif- so when i find it i become tighter and so on.

[naphand]

One point that is worth talking about, is the likelihood of meeting players again. PokerStars does have quite a few regulars, and knowing their game can help a lot then it comes to adjusting.

Party $1/$2 has such a huge turnover and number of tables, that it is rare to be on a table with more than 1 person I have notes on. Sometimes it happens, but less often than a table full of unknowns. Fortunately, most Party players can be quickly read and a "standard" player-type list is fairly reliable.

At $5/10 and esp. higher limits I think the number of "regulars" increases. This does not have to be long-term regulars, just people you will play with over several sessions, and can use your notes to good effect with, as well as considering what their notes/impressions on you must be.

The LAG is one of the most common players on Stars, along with the call-any-draw/any 2-suited types. They are generally not out-and-out maniancs, but they are loose and they are aggressive.

My figures show the following for 6-max tables:

Party $1/$2: Players SF 58.03 PFR 6.85

Stars $1/$2: Players SF 50.48 PFR 9.07

That is quite a big difference. Leaks in your game at $1/$2 will be be exposed more readily on Stars as a consequence.

Just very approximate (my math is not that strong); if you play around 35% of hands overall, then the average player is playing 23% looser on Party, 15% on Stars. A "looseness differential" about 35% lower. Also, 6.85% PFR equates to about 40% (6.85 x 6) of hands raised PF on Party, and 54% on Stars and that can/should mean a lot more folds PF.

[Peter_rus]

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Also, 6.85% PFR equates to about 40% (6.85 x 6) of hands raised PF on Party

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I thought 6,85% PFR means that every player raise 6,85% of time, - so amount of hands raised PF with six players on board equates:

1-(1-0,0685)^6=34,6%.

Am i mistaken?

[blubster]

what I plan on doing is sticking for $2-4$ a bit and see what happens. I happened to deposit right when they were having a promotion 2 days ago so I got $150 FREE BUCKS /images/graemlins/smile.gif which helps a little

I had tried the Pokerstars 1-2 before and it seemed pretty easy although I didn't play it for that long. Maybe a couple of thousand hands and I won a couple of hundred bucks so it still seemed somewhat soft to me, anyway if i don't turn it around at 2-4 soon i will probably play the 1-2 to chill out a bit and work more on my game.

i played about 500 hands today at 2-4 and i'm about even for the day. hopefully i start to turn it around from here.

blubster

[naphand]

I just did a quick mental guess of an approx. raise percent, without giving it any thought. Your formula looks correct.

I looked at it back-to-front: of course what we are calculating is the chance of no raise PF and this is clearly (1-0.0685) per player.

Given 6 players the chance of there being no raise is:

(1-0.0685)^6 = 0.6532 (65.32%)

and therefore the number of raised pots is:

1 - 0.6532 = 0.3468 (34.7%)

So, yes you are correct, and my estimate was sloppy... /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

And the Stars figure for raised pots is:

1-(1-0.0907)^6 = 0.4347 (43.5%)

I am beginning to wonder if my Stars figure is a bit low, as the games do seem a LOT more aggro at the moment, whether this is a permanent change or the WSOP factor remains to be seen. In the last 2-3 days the PF raises for the players has been averaging 11.59% (52% hands raised PF).