$30-$60 Problem

I am in the small blind with the Kc-9h in a $30-$60 game at the Bellagio and the small blind is $20. An early player, a middle player, the cutoff, and the button limp. I toss in another $10 with $170 already in the pot. The big blind checks. There is $180 in the pot and six players.


The flop is: Kd-Jc-9c, giving me top and bottom pair. I bet. Only the middle player, the cutoff, and the button call. There is $300 in the pot and four players.


The turn is the: Kh, giving me kings full of nines. What do I do?


Results later in the day.

You bet again and see what happens. With any luck, one of them flopped a straight and the other is on a club draw. If you get excessive action, then you might consider then someone has a monster that beats you.

Well, you're not worried about being beat here, not without a *lot* more reason to think so. So the question is how to extract the most amount of money here.


If you bet, you're going to lose the players with a random Q or gutshot draw or whatever, but you will probably keep the ones with a flush draw or, if they're bad, a straight draw.


If you check, there's very little risk in giving a free card, except that you'd lose the money that you would have made from a draw calling. In return, you may pick up a bet or two that you wouldn't have gotten on the river if a draw comes in and someone bets at it, or if someone foolishly decides that their Q is good.


The problem is that you're out of position. If the flush comes in, you can try for a check raise, but you'd really hate to see it checked around. And if you bet out, you may scare a weak flush into calling instead of raising, especially if you checked the turn.


I would bet out on the turn, and hope to get raised by a slowplayed straight, or by a non-full K. You might get the draws to call you, and it's a lot less speculative than hoping someone improves on the river enough to raise you.


- target

Check. No one likely has K-K, J-J, 9-9, A-K, K-Q, K-J, K-9, K-T, or Q-T, else you would have heard from them by now. Let 'em draw. Who knows, maybe some one will bet their draw or some other hand and you can check-raise or check-call/trap depending on where the bet comes from.

bet! Someone has club draw probably.Makempay for it. Most people won't throw a draw away here but they would be happy to check behind you. With you betting out on the flop they will be worried you have a king, but not full house. May even get action from QJ. Mabe someone has a weak king that they might raise you with now that they have 3 of them. I say make them pay to draw dead.

a check will look like an obvious checkraise in the making, so i think a bet is good here because you will be able to charge club draws and an unlikely made straight or other K will raise you. this however depends on the opponents you are up against and what their tendencies would be if you check (i.e.: will they assume you are trying to checkraise?)


obviously it's not the end of the world to give a free river card here, but if you have an opponent on a draw that they will stay with then you will definitely get their money on the turn, while you will you not if they miss the river.


if everyone folds then tough beans.


if you are up against KJ then tough beans.

Jim- "problem" you say? I think you have no problem as you will win this hand, whether you check-raise or just bet it. The suspense is killing me...Please tell...Babe.

I think bet and only call a raise. The early position players are unlikely to raise you or bet, as they would have raised you on the flop. So the bet, if it came, would likely come from a late position. this means you should not raise it. So it is better to bet yourself in case the bet does not come at all.


If the raise comes late, I would call to not eliminate anyone.


Good luck.


Dan Z.

Jim,


I absolutely bet, the turn and the river. Unless I'm positive I can trap the field or most of it for two bets I want to make them pay to draw, drawing dead is all the better, but as others pointed out if they're willing to pay to draw, whether they make a hand or miss you lose some bets. As an aside, I'm assume that you were barely thinking of the possibility of being beat, with such a coordinated flop most players would franticly raise top two on the flop--straight flush draw would probably raise too(except for Q-10c, probably the only possible live hand [one out] against you). Hope you made( and won) a monster pot.


Mike

There were 4 limpers pre-flop, and 3 players called your bet on the turn. It would seem like this is a loose game to me. If this is the case, forget that it is 30-60 and bet. The stakes don't matter, only how your opponents play. They probably will call you if they have any draw. One of them may even raise if he has K-10, Kc-xc, K-Q(although these last 2 hands probably would have raised on the flop), or Q-10 for a slow-played straight. Then you can re-raise, and get extract the maximum amount of money from him, as he will not fold.


If they all folded when you bet, don't feel bad. Nobody was going to bet for you anyway, unless they caught a miracle card on the river to catch a big hand (at least a straight).


If you check, it will be obvious you have a good hand. Look at it from their point of view. You bet the flop, and the top card on the board pairs. You now check. What could you possibly have? Q-J, J-10, J-9? With any of these hands, you would probably have tried to use the paired K to try to bluff to win the pot.


I'm curious why this is even a problem for you. You lost to K-J??? I'd really like to see the results.


polarbear

Jim,


You wrote: “The flop is: Kd-Jc-9c, giving me top and bottom pair. I bet. Only the middle player, the cutoff, and the button call.”


Only? Who folded? I don’t know if you intended to be funny here but this statement made me laugh.


The only hand you lose to is the KJ and I would think that hand (along with J9) would raise on the flop. I would bet again on the turn and hope to get action from a good jack, flush draw and/or straight draw. If you check and then raise an unlikely bet from an opponent you might as well announce you are full.


Regards,


Rick

Did you consider folding? It could be a good way to randomize your play.


Seriously, it's hard to believe anyone is going to let themselves be checkraised with this board unless he's got the case King. Bet and pray for callers.

For sure they don't have KK. (if they do, everyone is going to get their money back.)

I bet and everyone folded.


I think that slow playing should be seriously considered. My flop bet could have been done on the bottom two pair, a flush-draw, or a straight-draw for all these guys know. Now when I get called in three spots and the top flop-card pairs, by checking it looks like I am worried about someone having trips. Even if no one bets, I can bet the river and probably get at least one "curiosity call". I might even get raised by someone making a flush or a straight.


But when I come right out betting the turn, I am telling everyone that I have at least trip kings and maybe something more. Players on flush or straight draws may decide to fold anyway out of fear that they are drawing dead or that the card that makes their hand gives me a full house.


If I had to do it over again, I would have slow played even though I am not a big fan of slow playing normally.

The big blind and the early player folded.

Jim,


They might think that YOU are afraid of trips, when no one raised you on the flop? When no one raises you on the flop and the top card pairs, don't you usually bet again no matter what you have? I agree with the above opinion that a check looks pretty suspicious from a player who has the table image that I would expect that you would have; any players who are oblivious to your image will keep drawing anyway and those who aren't probably won't give you outragous action if you let them make a second best hand for "free". I still think that you're being a little result oriented (no offense) and that the other players didn't have much anyway THIS time. Your games are may be much tighter/tougher than mine, but I'm sure that checking would be wrong in my games(Chicago-City of Big Shoulders and BIG FISH).


Mike

I was about to write what Sunglasses Mike wrote.

jim,


you are being results oriented.


when 10 people on here reply to your post and they all say "bet", and they all have the same reasons, the correct answer is bet.


you did the right thing.


mike

It is possible that a guy may have a king with a weak kicker and be worried that I have him outkicked on the flop. Opponents tend to put you on top pair when you lead off into a large field like this especially with a coordinated board.

Many decades ago I was playing draw poker and I opened with Aces and was called by one player. We both drew 3. (The game was played with a Joker, so there were 5 aces in the deck.) There was a mini raising war and I finally called. The other guy laid down 3 aces and I looked over his hand and laid down my 3 aces, and said "you've got me with your kicker." We both had a good laugh, even though we felt like crying.


So it's not impossible for one extra king to be in the deck, but you're right: it's highly unlikely.


:-)

Not everyone said bet. See my post above.


My first reaction was also to bet and I had almost posted when I re-read Jim's post and decided checking was better. There was simply no hand that anyone could reasonably be put on other than a draw and the draws, with the exception of a straight flush draw who probably would have raised on the flop, they'd now all be drawing dead.

I think you've got the best hand and it will not be beat. I would check-raise. If it gets checked around, your hand is well disguised. If a club hits the river, you can check-raise. If no club hits the river, bet out. If a QT8 or 7 of clubs hits the river, I suppose you could argue for a check-call - I guess it depends on your opposition. I suspect anyone with that type of draw would have raised your flop bet. Someone with KJ is possible, but unlikely since you've got a K.


-Michael the LL wanna be ML.

No way I would check.


At worst, if everyone folds when you bet, you may lose out on 1 perhaps 2 big bets if your check would have induced anyone to bluff/semi-bluff.


But your bet may get you more than that if someone is on a flush draw or if someone flopped a straight (i.e. since you called from the sb, you don't necessarily have to have a good King hand - you could have called with K5s for example - meaning that you get a chance to 3 bet).


Also, betting here provides cover for all those occasions when you bet the turn without a full house. Further, a bet (as opposed to a check/raise) better disguises the fact that you have a full house.


I think the problem here with your thinking is that you are almost assuming that your opponents know that you will not bet the flop with a weak King (i.e. you need two pairs or perhaps Ak/KQ to bet). When you bet the flop from the sb, your opponents likely have you on a wide range of hands including hands like K5, J9, Ac3c etc. (if they don't, you are playing too tight postflop).


I just think that you found 4 callers with weak draws in this instance (perhaps gutshots, bottom pair what have you). I doubt that anyone threw away a flush draw. Like I said, no one should be particularly scared that they are drawing dead to a flush (if they can safely conclude that, I once again would say that you need to bet more often with vulnerable hands). With you in the sb, you don't necessarily have to have a card 9 or greater card to go along with your King.

But a draw would likely take the free card in a protected pot. If the action gets checked through, and a blank comes on the river, Jim would have to bet (he ain't gonna check twice) and then they all fold or perhaps he gets a curiosity call from someone. His slowplay gets him 1 big bet.


Slowplaying might be fine in a heads-up pot against an aggressive oppponet who will bet if you check but folkd if you bet but I don't see it as serving any useful purpose in a 4 way pot.


When guys are drawing dead, you have to charge them to draw. Otherwise, they are in fact not drawing at all.

"What could you possibly have? Q-J, J-10, J-9? With any of these hands, you would probably have tried to use the paired K to try to bluff to win the pot."


Excellent point.

Jim,


In retrospect checking would've done equal or better, but you don't know that you would've gotten any money anyway.


I favor betting. If you bet and get raised, you'll likely get three-four bets in through to the river against a straight or a high king. If you check-raise and your opponent knows you, he'll fold anything short of a full house.


Also, many players will call your bet with junk but won't bet themselves. Sounds like this was a tougher lineup though.

"There was simply no hand that anyone could reasonably be put on other than a draw and the draws, with the exception of a straight flush draw who probably would have raised on the flop, they'd now all be drawing dead."


so is it common for 30-60 players to fold flush draws and open ended straight draws as soon as the board pairs because they will assume they may be up against a full house? because what you are saying suggests something like that. with jim paying only $10 to limp in the sb could they put him on something like KT or AK (not likely i know) or K8s or whatever where he has trips but they still have appropriate outs to try to draw out on him. your reasoning doesnt make sense to me. he should be happy to bet and collect bets from people who are drawing dead. unless they have some sort of ESP powers how will they be able to assume he's full and fold a decent draw?


unless there's something i dont realise about the players at this level a check is clearly the worst move here.

An open-ended straight could only be there if a player had specifically T8. If the Q comes, there's no guarantee the K high straight is best and if it is, you may have only tied. If a club comes your straight may not be good. So, there's only 3 7's that you'd be happy with. Added to that is the fact that Jim may already be full. If I'm on flush draw with low cards, may be 87 or even 76, I may not call the turn bet knowing that I may still be beat by either a better flush or a made full house if my club comes. If I have 8c7c and the Tc comes, I can still lose to KcQc. It seems like there are plenty of limpers, so any of these hands are plausible.


I think it's worth it for Jim to check, the only hand he fears is a straight flush. Showing weakness on the turn and a club coming on the river may give someone the impotess(sp) to either bluff the river or bet their flush or straight.

"so is it common for 30-60 players to fold flush draws and open ended straight draws as soon as the board pairs because they will assume they may be up against a full house?"


I don't think anyone commonly assumes they're up against a full house when the board pairs. But big draws normally raise on the flop. With the flop of K-J-9 and no one raising Jim's flop bet, the most likely drawing hand was a gut shot straight. Once the King paired, gut shot draws are indeed going to fold when Jim bets. A hand like A-9 or J-8s will fold to a turn bet.


When I feel my hand is unbeatable, I let them take another card.

andy said: "big draws normally raise on the flop."


my experience is that many good players at the levels i play at (again, only 10-20, 15-30, so maybe im missing something) will disguise their draw (esp. strong flush draws) by NOT making that obligatory raise on the flop. since sharper players fall for a free card raise less and less, and reraising on the flop with top pair is common from early position bettors, this makes some sense. ive seen players who raise sometimes, and other times dont.


am i wrong in thinking that there might be a bunch of players adjusting to this "raise the flop on big draws" concept? it's also possible for a very big draw to wait until the turn for the raise, when their raise is more likely to fold the early bettor.


i would think that at 30-60 there would be even less ABC strategy going on and more tricky, aggressive plays like this.

another reason jim was right to bet the turn.


mike

Bet against typical players of this calibre, because now a AJ/QJ might get suspicious enough to pay you off and the flush draw isn't leaving either. Only against very aggressive thieving players could you check here, I think.

Jim,


It seems that a lot depends on the players; many people I play against would go for a check-raise on the turn, then bet out on the river if called.It seems almost a standard play in the $10-20 games I play in.