gutshot, set v flush possible, & two AT hands [Archive]

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Ralph Wiggum

06-07-2004, 01:03 AM

These hands are occurred during a 333 hand session. I have an tight, aggressive image.

Hand 1:
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, 6 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls.
Yeah, I could have settled for a free turn card, but I wanted to see two. I bet the flop, hoping if I didn't get my Ten, then I'd get a free turn also. In retrospect, I guess there's also the possibility that this bet wins me the pot immediately. Any thoughts? Last point: If I got c/r'ed, I guess I'd see a turn.

Hand 2:
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. UTG+1 posts a blind of $1.
Hero calls, UTG+1 (poster) checks, 3 folds, CO calls, Button raises, 2 folds, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, CO bets, Button raises, Hero calls, UTG+1 folds, CO calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Button folds, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, Hero caps, CO calls.
So, I've got CO on A9, 99, or 44.

River: (15.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero calls.
The club definitely weakened me. A /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/club.gif came into my head, and I decided to just call, in fear that I'd only win 3 bets or lose 4. Right or Wrong?

Final Pot: 19.75 BB
Main Pot: 19.75 BB, between Hero and CO. > Pot won by Hero (19.75 BB).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows 7h 7d (three of a kind, sevens).
CO shows 9c Ad (two pair, aces and nines).
Outcome: Hero wins 19.75 BB. 

Hand 3:
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks,
Is this a raising situation?

Hand 4:
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Though I didn't have many reads on players, BB was the only one that stood out as a solid player.
Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 4 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB 3-bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero checks.

River: (7.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB bets, UTG+2 folds, Hero folds.
Rather than the ol' quick point & click, I took a few extra seconds to think before proceeding to fold.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB
Main Pot: 7.75 BB, won by BB.
Pot 2: 1 BB, returned to BB.

Results in white below: 
BB doesn't show.
Outcome: BB wins 8.75 BB.

Ralph Wiggum

06-07-2004, 11:42 AM

Anyone have any answers? At least to Hand 3.

chief444

06-07-2004, 11:52 AM

Hand 2 I would much rather lead the flop and hope to be able to 3-bet.

Hand 3 I would often raise but don't have a problem with calling.

Hand 4 I think I call the river closing the action, although if BB is truly a solid player it is doubtful that he would 3-bet pf and then bluff at a protected pot with anything you beat.

Raiser

06-07-2004, 12:02 PM

This is kind of the cut off for me. I'll raise here if I'm feeling good. Call if not.

My guess is that raising/calling really makes very little difference in this situation in the long run.

nothumb

06-07-2004, 12:17 PM

Hand 1 - I bet the flop also, as the pre-flop raiser it looks strange if you don't and then take a shot at the pot when it's checked to you on the turn. Bet here, you will likely be called and checked to on the turn. Depending on who and how many call you, take the free card on the turn or try for the pot. I think you played fine.

Hand 2 - I would also be inclined to slow down here but I don't think I (or you) should be. Very few players three-bet a flush draw facing a turn c/r. The fact that he leads out after you cap is worrisome, but I feel like you might want to raise here. This is a difficult call and I could see it going either way. Keep in mind your hand is very well disguised and CO might put you on an ace since you came to life on the turn. Still, I probably would have played it the same.

Hand 3 - I would raise here without specific reads. A lot of people would say I raise too much.

Hand 4 - If BB is really solid he may have read the section of HPFAP that says you can bluff at a protected pot with a weak and a strong player both still in, if you think the weak player will probably fold, because the strong player will think you wouldn't bluff at a 'protected pot' and fold as well. I would make the crying call here, but again, close one, and I'm a bit loose.

Good questions all.

Ralph Wiggum

06-07-2004, 12:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is kind of the cut off for me. I'll raise here if I'm feeling good. Call if not.

[/ QUOTE ] I'm not going to be always sure if you feel good, so I'm probably still going to be clueless as to whether to raise or call.

[ QUOTE ]
My guess is that raising/calling really makes very little difference in this situation in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ] My intuition tells me that this is possibly a very big EV difference, hence I specifically pointed out this hand among the four hands I posted.

chief444

06-07-2004, 12:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My intuition tells me that this is possibly a very big EV difference, hence I specifically pointed out this hand among the four hands I posted.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think it is probably a small EV difference, but +EV. If you feel it is a big EV difference do you feel raising is much more +EV or much more -EV?

Ralph Wiggum

06-07-2004, 12:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My intuition tells me that this is possibly a very big EV difference, hence I specifically pointed out this hand among the four hands I posted.

[/ QUOTE ] I think it is probably a small EV difference, but +EV. If you feel it is a big EV difference do you feel raising is much more +EV or much more -EV?

[/ QUOTE ]
I said possibly, so I'm definitely clueless on this one. However, I'd believe raising would be more +EV if anything.

MortalNuts

06-07-2004, 12:54 PM

Not that my opinion is gospel or anything, but if the limpers are loose, I would raise PF in hand 3 pretty much all the time. Sure, being out of position sucks and all, but it's not like your average party 1/2 player is going to punish you for it or anything. And you have a metric buttload of equity against 4 loose limpers, which (imho) you're unlikely to be able to recoup post-flop by not raising. So, raise.

Btw, in I think it's hand 2: I think going for the check-raise on this flop (where you flopped a set) is a little weird, since the bet is most likely to come from your right. You're not going to drive out any flush draws playing it that way, but you probably will drive out hands like A7o that you'd love to have in there with you. Just bet the damn flop.

just my 2c.

cheers,

mn

Ralph Wiggum

06-07-2004, 01:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And you have a metric buttload of equity against 4 loose limpers, which (imho) you're unlikely to be able to recoup post-flop by not raising. So, raise.

[/ QUOTE ] Thanks, this is the response I'm looking for.

[ QUOTE ]
Btw, in I think it's hand 2: I think going for the check-raise on this flop (where you flopped a set) is a little weird, since the bet is most likely to come from your right. You're not going to drive out any flush draws playing it that way, but you probably will drive out hands like A7o that you'd love to have in there with you. Just bet the damn flop.

[/ QUOTE ] Agreed, but I wasn't going for the c/r on the flop. I don't think I could drive out a flush draw if I had a gun pointed at them. I was looking to c/r the turn. A7o is quite unlikely.

Raiser

06-07-2004, 01:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My intuition tells me that this is possibly a very big EV difference, hence I specifically pointed out this hand among the four hands I posted.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Ralph. I'm not sure why I think this, but I just don't believe that the difference between raising or calling is that big in general.

I do like the point that MN made regarding the type of limpers in front of you. I definitely agree that the worse the players are that already limped in the pot, the better a raise is. If you throw in a good limper or 2, I'm not sure it makes a difference.

But, I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

ZootMurph

06-07-2004, 01:49 PM

Hand 1: Not enough people in the pot to play KJo, more or less raise. I fold it here. On the flop, I check and hope for a Ten and check/fold if I don't get one.

Hand 2: You hit a set on the flop... I three bet it immediately. I pray someone has an Ace on the turn and bet the living heck out of it, just like you did. At this point, it is two players raising... no flush draw left, so when the river hits, you need to bet and 3 bet it.

Hand 3: ATs on the button is a raise, but in SB with the bad position, I'd complete as well.

Hand 4: I wouldn't have raised with ATo on the button... In fact, it would be close for me to even call with it. I play the flop the same, but I bet the turn as well. On the river, if the game is still going, I call a bet and bet if it is checked to me. You have to at least call that river.

nothumb

06-07-2004, 01:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure why I think this, but I just don't believe that the difference between raising or calling is that big in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

This statement seems really insane to me, am I missing something? Are you saying that there is never a major difference between raising and calling when you are bet into? Or just in pre-flop action? Or are you being totally unserious?

One of the biggest points of tight-aggressive play, in my opinion, is that raising or folding are very often better than calling. I can see how playing with a bunch of loose limpers who catch junk hands all day might make you believe otherwise in the short term, but if so you're wrong.

I'm about 50/50 on whether you were just joking or are totally nuts. /images/graemlins/confused.gif Haven't spoken with you before but I hope it's the former.

Ralph Wiggum

06-07-2004, 01:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure why I think this, but I just don't believe that the difference between raising or calling is that big in general.

[/ QUOTE ] This statement seems really insane to me, am I missing something? Are you saying that there is never a major difference between raising and calling when you are bet into? Or just in pre-flop action? Or are you being totally unserious?

One of the biggest points of tight-aggressive play, in my opinion, is that raising or folding are very often better than calling.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you haven't been following the thread, as to the raising or calling decision, I think he was referring to my PF decision in Hand 3. Hence the title of the post Re: bump (Hand 3) .

MortalNuts

06-07-2004, 02:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Agreed, but I wasn't going for the c/r on the flop. I don't think I could drive out a flush draw if I had a gun pointed at them. I was looking to c/r the turn. A7o is quite unlikely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough -- I certainly didn't mean to imply that you have any chance of folding a flush draw out. And UTG holding specifically A7 is unlikely, but that was just an example -- there are tons of other hands that are drawing nearly dead to you, but may still call one bet (but not two). But I still wouldn't check-call this flop, planning to check-raise the turn. Who says you can't bet out and still check-raise the turn? And are you even certain that check-raising the turn is the best line, given your likely position relative to the bettor? I think it's debateable, at the very least.

just my 2c.

cheers,

mn

Ralph Wiggum

06-07-2004, 02:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Not enough people in the pot to play KJo, more or less raise. I fold it here.

I wouldn't have raised with ATo on the button... In fact, it would be close for me to even call with it.

[/ QUOTE ] I play these hands, I already don't play much. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3: ATs on the button is a raise, but in SB with the bad position, I'd complete as well.

[/ QUOTE ] So whether I raise with ATs is a matter of position rather than preflop equity?

Raiser

06-07-2004, 02:07 PM

Hey nothumb,

Ralph is correct. I'm talking, specifically, about hand #3.

Thanks for your concern though /images/graemlins/cool.gif

nothumb

06-07-2004, 02:14 PM

Thanks guys, as I read these in flat mode I rarely notice those thread sub-topics. I think it was the 'in general' part of that statement that threw me off. /images/graemlins/blush.gif I'd been following the thread but didn't see where the 'in general' would be differentiating from a particular specific.

Glad that's settled.

chief444

06-07-2004, 02:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So whether I raise with ATs is a matter of position rather than preflop equity?

[/ QUOTE ]
Both. Preflop equity increases with better position. You should make more and lose less with any given hand with good position in the long run. I would definitely raise ATs on the button with a bunch of limpers.

BTW, I don't think raising on the button with either KJo or ATo is a bad play with 1 limper. Most hands that dominate you even fairly passive players will open raise with.

flexus

06-07-2004, 05:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Not enough people in the pot to play KJo, more or less raise. I fold it here.

[/ QUOTE ]

wouldnt you rather play KJo against one limpaer than against four or five limpers? I think KJo is not that bad of a hand in a shorthanded pot.