TT in loose game

The Holiday Inn 10-20 game in Vancouver is generally very loose. On Friday Nights, even more so.


I was in a game with 4 abolute clueless dudes along with 5 other guys whose play can, at best, be described as average.


With that in mind, here's a hand from last night.


First two players limp. I limp with the black Tens.


Everyone except the cut-off seat calls. 9 way action.


Flop: 9d5s2c


I bet. (I couldn't quite imagine how I could somehow finagle a Mason turn raise to limit the field given my position).


I get some help when the guy to my immediate left raises.


4 guys coldcall (so much for the help) /images/smile.gif


Note: The coldcallers were the button, both blinds and one of the early limpers. The latter 3 were of the clueless variety. 6 way action.


What's my play now?


Anyway, I just call (not very sure of that one)


Turn: Real help arrives...the Ten of Diamonds.


Again, what's my play?


I bet (Obvious bet or debatable?)


All 5 of my opponents call.


River: Ad


Board is now 9d5s2cTdAd.


The big blind bets. Eraly limper folds. I call. Others behind me fold.


Analysis please.

skp,


I would almost always raise preflop w/ the T-T and only two limpers; must try to eliminate as many weak overcards as possible. On the flop, I would probably 3-bet hoping to be reraised, sometimes the goofy stragglers will fold for two more bets and again a single overcard can beat you; and with the over pair I believe that I probably have the best hand. Bet on the turn is fine--can't risk trying for check raise in big pot and giving free-card. On the river, I hate the diamond but make a crying call for the size of the pot and the chance that the "clueless" bettor made aces up.


goodluck, (who needs luck?)


Mike

re: the river.


I'm trying to picture how the guy made a flush after calling two-cold on the flop. He could have flopped a pair, or a straight draw, or decided to take one off with two overcards. Now I'm trying to figure out what hands he could bet on the river that I could beat. Lots of them. Doesn't even have to be two pair. If he could call two-cold on the flop with a big ace, and then call a turn bet, then he's likely the type of player who might sling a bet out there on the river when he hits his best card.


I'd raise the river if I could safely fold to a reraise. This is somewhat player dependent, but even against an unknown I think it's a reasonable play.


Tommy

i couldn't of said it better than Mike sunglasses. would have played the hand the exact same way.


i would not reraise the river Tommy for 3 reasons. 1) these are loose players and its harder to put them on a hand, and if they reraise the river i'm going to call anyway and cost me 2 big bets. the pot is too big too lay down and my opponent may be overplaying 2 pair or just playing wacky! 2) someone behind me me may have a flush. there are alot of callers on the turn here. what are they calling with? someone may have picked up on a flush draw on turn. 3) i hope to get overcalls behind me from poeple calling with worse hands than mine to make some extra bets when my 10's are good. in big pots especially, people will make some marginal calls on the river. the ace may have hit someone behind me and will call one bet on river but not 2!

Tommy,


I might also try to figure out how the bettor made the flush but I could never discount the possibility. There's plenty of idiots in my games that love to call two bets or more with any pair(even bottom) and some backdoor draw. The other day I raised A-Q got flop of A-K-x rainbow, player called w/ J-9s; rag, rag, running flush. I'm not tryin' to whine I'm just sayin' to never underestimate the stupidity of some players and just because it seems pretty unlikely that they made a particular hand doesn't mean that they weren't playin' for it all along. Pokerguy makes a good point about possible flushes behind skp or overcalls. Dr. Alan S. recently pointed out in Poker Digest the "fallacy" of assuming others think the same way I/you/we do; this somehow has not been an easy lesson for me and I've been working on it for a few years--I'm gettin' there though.


Good luck (who needs luck),


Mike

So, skip is playing live these days. What's it like to venture out of the cave?


Limping btf is the most interesting part of this hand for me. Is this because you didn't think you could push anyone out, or you think TT is the median pair from which you want to try to flop a set and therefore want lots of callers? I really think you should have raised and tried to limit the field.


I also think you should have reraised on the flop. Let them know it's going to be expensive to draw when you are in the hand. This will not only put pressure on them in this hand, it could give you more table control in later hands.


You have to bet the turn. Don't trust these yahoos to bet for you.


I like the call on the river. If you hold the winner, a raise might push out players behind you who would call one bet, and if you are beat, you save the extra bet.


I'm guessing you got beat by Kd5d or 43.

Reasoning seems to be right. If you decide to payoff another river raise still probably right. Does not have to be 100% that he isn't flushing.

pokerguy,


"i would not reraise the river Tommy for 3 reasons. 1) ...if they reraise the river i'm going to call anyway ..."


We have no disagreement here because the essential condition was (whatever the reasoning) that a fold to a reraise be in the playbook and be right.


"3) i hope to get overcalls behind me ..."


Good point, and one I overlooked. If it were head up, the river-raise option could be isolated as an exactly-one-bet risk/reward decision. With players behind, it's a whole 'nother matter and I think calling is best.


Tommy

The big blind had A8 off suit. I won a nice pot that would have been a lot bigger had I 3 bet the flop.


To me, that was the most debatable aspect of the hand: 3 bet or call.


Preflop, I find that raising with TT after a couple of early limpers is not as effective as simply calling and allowing a calling frenzy in order to reap huge dividends when you flop a set. Also, this game was very loose (as you can tell from the postflop action); IMO, this also favours calling as I simply don't stand much of a chance of limiting the field.

"So, skp is playing live these days. What's it like to venture out of the cave?"


Hehe..yup...back playing live for the time being. Still have about $1500 left at Planet Poker but the 20-40 games rarely go these days. If it's 10-20 net and 10-20 live, I would rather play live. Once (if?) the 20-40 gets going again on a regular basis, I am probably back into the cave.